jwdink, I don’t think Vladimir Nesov is making an Is-Ought error. Think of this: You have values (preferences, desired ends, emotional “impulses” or whatever) which are a physical part of your nature. Everything you decide to do, you do because you Want to. If you refuse to acknowledge any criteria for behavior as valuable to you, you’re saying that what feels valuable to you isn’t valuable to you. This is a contradiction!
An Is-Ought problem arises when you attempt to derive a Then without an If. Here, the If is given: If you value what you value, then you should do what is right in accordance with your values.
But there seemed to be some suggestion that an avoidance of sacrificing the children, even to the risk of everyone’s lives was a “less rational” value. If it’s a value, it’s a value… how do you call certain values invalid, or not “real” preferences?
I missed where Vladimir made that suggestion, though I’m sure others have. You can have an irrational value, if it’s really a means and not an end (which is another value), but you don’t recognize that, and call the means a value itself. Means to an end can of course be evaluated as rational. If anyone made the suggestion you mention, they probably presumed a single “basic” value of preserving lives, and considered the method of deciding to be a means, but denoted as a value.
(Of course, a value can be both a means and an end, which presents fun new complications...)
I agree generally that this is what an irrational value would mean. However, the presiding implicit assumption was that the utilitarian ends were the correct, and therefore the presiding explicit assumption (or at least, I thought it was presiding… now I can’t seem to get anyone to defend it, so maybe not) was that therefore the most efficient means to these particular ends were the most rational.
Maybe I was misunderstanding the presiding assumption, though. It was just stuff like this:
Lesswrongers will be encouraged to learn that the Torchwood characters were rationalists to a man and woman—there was little hesitation in agreeing to the 456′s demands.
Or this, in response to a call to “dignity”:
How many lives is your dignity worth? Would you be willing to actually kill people for your dignity, or are you only willing to make that transaction if someone else is holding the knife?
Haha, we must have very different criteria for “confusing.” I found that post very clear, and I’ve struggled quite a bit with most of your posts. No offense meant, of course: I’m just not very versed in the LW vernacular.
My comments can be confusing, or difficult to get over the wider inferential gaps. In this case I meant that nickernst’s comment could just be expressed much more clearly.
jwdink, I don’t think Vladimir Nesov is making an Is-Ought error. Think of this: You have values (preferences, desired ends, emotional “impulses” or whatever) which are a physical part of your nature. Everything you decide to do, you do because you Want to. If you refuse to acknowledge any criteria for behavior as valuable to you, you’re saying that what feels valuable to you isn’t valuable to you. This is a contradiction!
An Is-Ought problem arises when you attempt to derive a Then without an If. Here, the If is given: If you value what you value, then you should do what is right in accordance with your values.
But there seemed to be some suggestion that an avoidance of sacrificing the children, even to the risk of everyone’s lives was a “less rational” value. If it’s a value, it’s a value… how do you call certain values invalid, or not “real” preferences?
I missed where Vladimir made that suggestion, though I’m sure others have. You can have an irrational value, if it’s really a means and not an end (which is another value), but you don’t recognize that, and call the means a value itself. Means to an end can of course be evaluated as rational. If anyone made the suggestion you mention, they probably presumed a single “basic” value of preserving lives, and considered the method of deciding to be a means, but denoted as a value.
(Of course, a value can be both a means and an end, which presents fun new complications...)
I agree generally that this is what an irrational value would mean. However, the presiding implicit assumption was that the utilitarian ends were the correct, and therefore the presiding explicit assumption (or at least, I thought it was presiding… now I can’t seem to get anyone to defend it, so maybe not) was that therefore the most efficient means to these particular ends were the most rational.
Maybe I was misunderstanding the presiding assumption, though. It was just stuff like this:
Or this, in response to a call to “dignity”:
I think I hear you, but this comment is way confusing.
Haha, we must have very different criteria for “confusing.” I found that post very clear, and I’ve struggled quite a bit with most of your posts. No offense meant, of course: I’m just not very versed in the LW vernacular.
My comments can be confusing, or difficult to get over the wider inferential gaps. In this case I meant that nickernst’s comment could just be expressed much more clearly.