It’s very believable. I’ll give a couple of techniques here.
Reinforce skeptical behavior while modifying their self-image to that of a truth-seeker: “I love talking to you because you pursue the truth over comforting lies”. Be genuine, and by that I mean use the tone you would use to tell someone that their suit looks good.
Give high-status cues. Assume the role of teacher or mentor. Once they want to become more like you, merely expressing your beliefs (not opposing theirs, but expressing yours) will make a significant impact.
Demonstrate that giving up religious belief won’t result in isolation. How exactly you do this will vary based on the social context.
There are a couple others, such as generating low-status associations with religion, which is a bit advanced and so not worth covering here, and creating false memories and comittments, which is scarily easy to do but absolutely dark arts and therefore not covered here.
You will note the absence of “rational argument” on this list. That’s because rational argument is rather ineffective for changing the mind of the person you are arguing with (though it may change the views of observers).
Yes. To be honest, I suspect I only hastened the process by a year or two though (also ended up giving a crash course in evolutionary bio and physics, which helped me understand both subjects much better).
I have recently had the unpleasant experience of getting subjected to the kind of dishonest emotional manipulation that is recommended here. A (former) friend tried to convert me to his religion by using these tricks, and I can attest that they are effective if the person on the receiving end is trusting enough and doesn’t realize that they are being manipulated. In my case the absence and avoidance of rational argument eventually led to the failure of the conversion attempt, but not before I had been inflicted severe emotional distress by a person I used to trust.
Needless to say, I find it unpleasant that these kind of techniques are mentioned without also mentioning that they are indeed manipulative, dishonest and very easy to abuse.
Does LessWrong have an actual primer on the Dark Arts anywhere? There’s a lot of discussion of Defense Against, but I haven’t seen any Practice Of… Perhaps that’s beyond the scope of what we really intend to teach here?
The last of those 3 (mine), at least, is in the process of being developed. I’m still mostly focusing on reading the relevant literature. I have the rough draft of 3 posts, but since it looks like there will be 10 to 15 of them plus a large post of miscellaneous techniques of influence, I am not posting yet (I will probably reorganize before I post).
I would be interested in knowing what resources you used for this sequence.
As an autist there is a huge swath of innate skills ‘normal’ people possess I can only emulate. Social success for me is indistinguishable from Dark Art skill.
To start with, I would recommend (in the following order)
Thinking Fast and Slow- Kahneman and Tversky
Influence: Science and Practice—Cialdini
How We Decide- Lehrer
How to Win Friends and Influence People—Carnegie
Nudge: Thaler and Sunstein
Cialdini and Carnegie have a bad habit of not citing sources, so you may want to take any unsubstantiated claims with a grain of salt.
This list is not comprehensive. If anyone else would like to add some recommendations for books or particularly informative studies, I would definitely appreciate it.
In addition to reading, experience in dealing with people is very important for things like this. If you are not currently employed, I would recommend getting a job in sales. This will give you a chance to practice and experiment in a relatively safe environment. Additionally, I have heard that unusual behavior is more accepted in bars, so that might be worth looking into (I’m under 21 and live in America, so that is not really an option for me. As such, bear in mind that this is secondhand advice). Finally, if you are particularly skilled in some subject area, you may want to consider tutoring. In addition to bringing in money and helping someone else, this will allow you to experience being in a high-status situation.
Once again, the list of recommended experiences is not comprehensive. I would welcome any additional suggestions.
Discussion in the comments of this post, in which I perceived Luke as heartily recommending skinny-dipping in sewers for self-improvement purposes. “And then I swallowed this sample of engineered resistant mycobacterium tuberculosis, and I felt great! Not that you should do that or anything.”
“each theist” is the part of the claim that is too strong, since it would include, among others, the Pope, Mother Teresa and Osama bin Ladin. I grant that some techniques do work on some theists (and atheists).
True, if you want to be pedantic about it. In fact, they probably wouldn’t work on most theists in high-status positions. Think about how often you hear about someone “finding God/Allah/Jesus” at a low point of their life when they feel themselves to be failures. Now consider how often someone high-status changes their beliefs.
Didn’t see this! You’re right, that is quite a bit too strong. Let me reduce the strength of that statement: Among theists to whom I have become close enough to ask deeply personal questions and expect truthful answers, such levers seem prevalent.
It’s very believable. I’ll give a couple of techniques here.
Reinforce skeptical behavior while modifying their self-image to that of a truth-seeker: “I love talking to you because you pursue the truth over comforting lies”. Be genuine, and by that I mean use the tone you would use to tell someone that their suit looks good.
Give high-status cues. Assume the role of teacher or mentor. Once they want to become more like you, merely expressing your beliefs (not opposing theirs, but expressing yours) will make a significant impact.
Demonstrate that giving up religious belief won’t result in isolation. How exactly you do this will vary based on the social context.
There are a couple others, such as generating low-status associations with religion, which is a bit advanced and so not worth covering here, and creating false memories and comittments, which is scarily easy to do but absolutely dark arts and therefore not covered here.
You will note the absence of “rational argument” on this list. That’s because rational argument is rather ineffective for changing the mind of the person you are arguing with (though it may change the views of observers).
And what is your success rate using these conversion techniques?
3 successes (that I know of) out of 1 attempted. I don’t intentionally deconvert people, generally speaking.
hmm, 300% success rate...
Did you succeed with the one you attempted?
Yes. To be honest, I suspect I only hastened the process by a year or two though (also ended up giving a crash course in evolutionary bio and physics, which helped me understand both subjects much better).
I have recently had the unpleasant experience of getting subjected to the kind of dishonest emotional manipulation that is recommended here. A (former) friend tried to convert me to his religion by using these tricks, and I can attest that they are effective if the person on the receiving end is trusting enough and doesn’t realize that they are being manipulated. In my case the absence and avoidance of rational argument eventually led to the failure of the conversion attempt, but not before I had been inflicted severe emotional distress by a person I used to trust.
Needless to say, I find it unpleasant that these kind of techniques are mentioned without also mentioning that they are indeed manipulative, dishonest and very easy to abuse.
Does LessWrong have an actual primer on the Dark Arts anywhere? There’s a lot of discussion of Defense Against, but I haven’t seen any Practice Of… Perhaps that’s beyond the scope of what we really intend to teach here?
There are several started sequences, none of which got past their fist post.
So any given Practice of the Dark Arts teacher can only last for one term? :)
The last of those 3 (mine), at least, is in the process of being developed. I’m still mostly focusing on reading the relevant literature. I have the rough draft of 3 posts, but since it looks like there will be 10 to 15 of them plus a large post of miscellaneous techniques of influence, I am not posting yet (I will probably reorganize before I post).
I would be interested in knowing what resources you used for this sequence.
As an autist there is a huge swath of innate skills ‘normal’ people possess I can only emulate. Social success for me is indistinguishable from Dark Art skill.
To start with, I would recommend (in the following order)
Thinking Fast and Slow- Kahneman and Tversky Influence: Science and Practice—Cialdini How We Decide- Lehrer How to Win Friends and Influence People—Carnegie Nudge: Thaler and Sunstein
Cialdini and Carnegie have a bad habit of not citing sources, so you may want to take any unsubstantiated claims with a grain of salt.
This list is not comprehensive. If anyone else would like to add some recommendations for books or particularly informative studies, I would definitely appreciate it.
In addition to reading, experience in dealing with people is very important for things like this. If you are not currently employed, I would recommend getting a job in sales. This will give you a chance to practice and experiment in a relatively safe environment. Additionally, I have heard that unusual behavior is more accepted in bars, so that might be worth looking into (I’m under 21 and live in America, so that is not really an option for me. As such, bear in mind that this is secondhand advice). Finally, if you are particularly skilled in some subject area, you may want to consider tutoring. In addition to bringing in money and helping someone else, this will allow you to experience being in a high-status situation.
Once again, the list of recommended experiences is not comprehensive. I would welcome any additional suggestions.
Adding
\s\sbefore your\nwill let you do newlines in Markup syntax.Thank you.
Both require powers, the second involves using them unethically.
I look forward very much to seeing your sequence.
Discussion in the comments of this post, in which I perceived Luke as heartily recommending skinny-dipping in sewers for self-improvement purposes. “And then I swallowed this sample of engineered resistant mycobacterium tuberculosis, and I felt great! Not that you should do that or anything.”
“each theist” is the part of the claim that is too strong, since it would include, among others, the Pope, Mother Teresa and Osama bin Ladin. I grant that some techniques do work on some theists (and atheists).
True, if you want to be pedantic about it. In fact, they probably wouldn’t work on most theists in high-status positions. Think about how often you hear about someone “finding God/Allah/Jesus” at a low point of their life when they feel themselves to be failures. Now consider how often someone high-status changes their beliefs.
Didn’t see this! You’re right, that is quite a bit too strong. Let me reduce the strength of that statement: Among theists to whom I have become close enough to ask deeply personal questions and expect truthful answers, such levers seem prevalent.
Really horrifyingly scarily easy. (Most of the comments thread.)