I wonder if burning Narcissa Malfoy to death would count, or if it had too many positive externalities. (I’m less and less sure how to model Dumbledore as MoR proceeds, particularly since even if he’s “supposed to be good”, Eliezer is writing him and Eliezer is some sort of consequentialist; I wouldn’t want to rule out the possibility that Dumbledore deemed himself indispensable and his soul’s contiguousness dispensable to the war effort.)
This would explain why Dumbledore is so worried about becoming a Dark Lord. It’s also less improbable than it initially seems because Harry already established that Dumbledore hasn’t thought through his views about death, etc, very well, and that Dumbledore has some nearly contradictory beliefs.
The rationale that I imagine him using is: “I would sacrifice my immortal soul to save my friends mortal lives”. Which is incredibly generous and would make him into a praiseworthy hero.
The most probable way I see EY working in a “Dumbledore has a Horcrux” thing is through a plot where Dumbledore is not a Dark Lord, but thinks he is, and Harry thinks Dumbledore is evil, and Quirrell is manipulating both of them. Even then, I still don’t think this is very probable.
Of note—the canon version is that murder rends the soul, and a horcrux merely preserves one part of it in a separate object than your body. Dumbledore did not need to create a horcrux to have sacrificed the contiguousness of his soul, assuming canonical soulphysics at least.
Of course, I see no reason not to create a horcrux if you’re doing murder anyways(unless there are significant additional costs associated), but then Dumbledore has a very different view of death than I do.
I hadn’t previously seen any clear motive for Dumbledore to kill Narcissa. That he might have done so to help keep himself ready to defend Magical Britain at least provides a possible explanation.
Assuming that he did, in fact, do broadly what Draco said, anyhow.
Pedanterrific, I’m not conflating the two acts, merely observing that one may illuminate the other.
Evidence in favor: Dumbledore thinks it’s plausible that he’s the Dark Lord from the prophecy, which would require it possible to destroy all but a remnant of him.
You said “this” as though it were a reference to “deemed his soul’s contiguousness dispensable to the war effort”, which just means “he was willing to commit murder”. It’s the murder that splits the soul, not the Horcruxing.
You’re correct, but I was responding to the whole statement:
I wouldn’t want to rule out the possibility that Dumbledore deemed himself indispensable >and his soul’s contiguousness dispensable to the war effort.
If our dear Headmaster murdered Narcissa because he thought his continued availability to Magical Britain was more important than avoiding that kind of atrocity, or keeping his soul whole then that means that he used the murder to protect himself from death, and in this context that means that he made a Horcrux.
This is, of course, all conjecture. We don’t know for certain that Dumbledore himself did the deed, or that it went down the way that the surviving Malfoys believe it did. We do know that Dumbledore finds it useful for them to believe it, and we do know that he has studied how horcruxes are made as part of his Anti-Voldemort campaign, and we can be fairly sure that Madame Bones knows the truth of the matter of Narcissa’s death
What evidence do we have that Bones knows the truth of the matter? She knows that Dumbledore might be tempted to confess to Lucius in the trial scene, and after that the best link I’ve ever seen anyone draw between her and Narcissa is the “Somebody would burn for this!” from TSPE. The latter implies nothing, and the former doesn’t require any special level of knowledge.
“That depends,” Amelia said in a hard voice. “Are you here to help
us catch criminals, or to protect them from the consequences of their
actions?” Are you going to try to stop the killer of my brother from getting her
well-deserved Kiss, old meddler?
In Chapter 56, one chapter after the “Somebody would burn for this.” quote.
Evidence in favor: Dumbledore thinks it’s plausible that he’s the Dark Lord from the prophecy, which would require it possible to destroy all but a remnant of him.
I do wonder whether the Source of Magic, or whatever it is that determines whether a Horcrux can be made, draws a distinction between deaths in combat, deaths accidentally caused and deaths deliberately and avoidably caused.
(upvoted chaosmosis)
How is utilitarian not cold-blooded? As far as I understand, utilitarians work by assigning utility values between different outcomes and choosing the one with the most utility. That seems pretty cold-blooded.
100k years worth of life > 2 minutes of intense pain and loss of 2 years of life.
Utilitarianism has to be equally-blooded for all outcomes, but this can also be accomplished by being hot-blooded about everything. Instead of shrugging and not caring about the pain and two-year loss, you can mourn it while also grinning and clapping your hands and jumping around shouting for joy at the perspective of someone gaining so much life.
How about some kind of Russian roulette—two people get wands, one is magical, one is not, they are supposed to cast some paralysis spell and then Avada Kedavra on each other. The paralysis spell gives the victim enough time to realize they have lost, and thus to die in horror.
Yet, if average(years gained) is more than average(years lost), the transaction is good from utilitarian viewpoint. Especially if both parties are volunteers. I don’t know whether this qualifies as “cold-blooded murder”, though—I would need more precise definition.
Yeah. Alternatively Harry could seize power and then force gladiators to murder each other and have perform Dark Rituals to create a Horcrux after the killings, that would probably be evil enough. Also, this would be a better sport than Quidditch, so it’s win-win.
One possible explanation is that the horcrux doesn’t require a murder to create, but it does require a human brain to restore the backup to. This doesn’t seem terribly likely, but I think it would be a elegant solution to why horcruxes need murder.
It seems like that’s a questionable assumption that Harry would be eager to test, once he found out about Horcruxes. For example, can you cast a Horcrux on the power of, say, Avada Kedavra-ing a nonmagical nonhuman creature? If not, how about a magical creature?
What if you could create a low-quality backup that way? Wouldn’t it still be better than nothing?
I think it has to be cold-blooded murder, not a utilitarian sacrifice.
I wonder if burning Narcissa Malfoy to death would count, or if it had too many positive externalities. (I’m less and less sure how to model Dumbledore as MoR proceeds, particularly since even if he’s “supposed to be good”, Eliezer is writing him and Eliezer is some sort of consequentialist; I wouldn’t want to rule out the possibility that Dumbledore deemed himself indispensable and his soul’s contiguousness dispensable to the war effort.)
It would explain why Harry always has to carry around an otherwise normal-seeming rock...
How would it do that?
It was a lame joke about Dumbledore making Harry protect his Horcrux by telling him it was his Father’s Rock. Nevermind me...
I actually consider that to be a very likely case.
This would explain why Dumbledore is so worried about becoming a Dark Lord. It’s also less improbable than it initially seems because Harry already established that Dumbledore hasn’t thought through his views about death, etc, very well, and that Dumbledore has some nearly contradictory beliefs.
The rationale that I imagine him using is: “I would sacrifice my immortal soul to save my friends mortal lives”. Which is incredibly generous and would make him into a praiseworthy hero.
The most probable way I see EY working in a “Dumbledore has a Horcrux” thing is through a plot where Dumbledore is not a Dark Lord, but thinks he is, and Harry thinks Dumbledore is evil, and Quirrell is manipulating both of them. Even then, I still don’t think this is very probable.
Of note—the canon version is that murder rends the soul, and a horcrux merely preserves one part of it in a separate object than your body. Dumbledore did not need to create a horcrux to have sacrificed the contiguousness of his soul, assuming canonical soulphysics at least.
Of course, I see no reason not to create a horcrux if you’re doing murder anyways(unless there are significant additional costs associated), but then Dumbledore has a very different view of death than I do.
This might put something of a different slant on the events surrounding the death of Narcissa Malfoy, if true.
Could you explain? I don’t see how “Dumbledore killed her” is a ‘different slant’.
I think he’s getting at the horcrux theory?
I keep getting confused by people reading “murder” as “created a Horcrux”, I really should have learned that lesson by now.
I hadn’t previously seen any clear motive for Dumbledore to kill Narcissa. That he might have done so to help keep himself ready to defend Magical Britain at least provides a possible explanation.
Assuming that he did, in fact, do broadly what Draco said, anyhow.
Pedanterrific, I’m not conflating the two acts, merely observing that one may illuminate the other.
Evidence in favor: Dumbledore thinks it’s plausible that he’s the Dark Lord from the prophecy, which would require it possible to destroy all but a remnant of him.
The standard theory is that he killed her to show the death eaters that attacking families of Order of the Phoenix members will now be repaid in kind.
You mean standard? Or is this jargon I’m unfamiliar with?
Thanks, fixed.
You said “this” as though it were a reference to “deemed his soul’s contiguousness dispensable to the war effort”, which just means “he was willing to commit murder”. It’s the murder that splits the soul, not the Horcruxing.
You’re correct, but I was responding to the whole statement:
If our dear Headmaster murdered Narcissa because he thought his continued availability to Magical Britain was more important than avoiding that kind of atrocity, or keeping his soul whole then that means that he used the murder to protect himself from death, and in this context that means that he made a Horcrux.
This is, of course, all conjecture. We don’t know for certain that Dumbledore himself did the deed, or that it went down the way that the surviving Malfoys believe it did. We do know that Dumbledore finds it useful for them to believe it, and we do know that he has studied how horcruxes are made as part of his Anti-Voldemort campaign, and we can be fairly sure that Madame Bones knows the truth of the matter of Narcissa’s death
What evidence do we have that Bones knows the truth of the matter? She knows that Dumbledore might be tempted to confess to Lucius in the trial scene, and after that the best link I’ve ever seen anyone draw between her and Narcissa is the “Somebody would burn for this!” from TSPE. The latter implies nothing, and the former doesn’t require any special level of knowledge.
I was only thinking of the trial scene, I’m afraid.
I wasn’t the first one to note this, but:
In Chapter 56, one chapter after the “Somebody would burn for this.” quote.
Evidence in favor: Dumbledore thinks it’s plausible that he’s the Dark Lord from the prophecy, which would require it possible to destroy all but a remnant of him.
I do wonder whether the Source of Magic, or whatever it is that determines whether a Horcrux can be made, draws a distinction between deaths in combat, deaths accidentally caused and deaths deliberately and avoidably caused.
(upvoted chaosmosis) How is utilitarian not cold-blooded? As far as I understand, utilitarians work by assigning utility values between different outcomes and choosing the one with the most utility. That seems pretty cold-blooded.
100k years worth of life > 2 minutes of intense pain and loss of 2 years of life.
Utilitarianism has to be equally-blooded for all outcomes, but this can also be accomplished by being hot-blooded about everything. Instead of shrugging and not caring about the pain and two-year loss, you can mourn it while also grinning and clapping your hands and jumping around shouting for joy at the perspective of someone gaining so much life.
Because any utilitarian with a brain will also think of things like “What will the consequences on society be if this sort of thing becomes normal?”.
In ch.79 Dumbledore mentions the human sacrifice has to be “committed in coldest blood, the victim dying in horror”
How about some kind of Russian roulette—two people get wands, one is magical, one is not, they are supposed to cast some paralysis spell and then Avada Kedavra on each other. The paralysis spell gives the victim enough time to realize they have lost, and thus to die in horror.
Yet, if average(years gained) is more than average(years lost), the transaction is good from utilitarian viewpoint. Especially if both parties are volunteers. I don’t know whether this qualifies as “cold-blooded murder”, though—I would need more precise definition.
Yeah. Alternatively Harry could seize power and then force gladiators to murder each other and have perform Dark Rituals to create a Horcrux after the killings, that would probably be evil enough. Also, this would be a better sport than Quidditch, so it’s win-win.
One possible explanation is that the horcrux doesn’t require a murder to create, but it does require a human brain to restore the backup to. This doesn’t seem terribly likely, but I think it would be a elegant solution to why horcruxes need murder.
It seems like that’s a questionable assumption that Harry would be eager to test, once he found out about Horcruxes. For example, can you cast a Horcrux on the power of, say, Avada Kedavra-ing a nonmagical nonhuman creature? If not, how about a magical creature?
What if you could create a low-quality backup that way? Wouldn’t it still be better than nothing?
OTOH if true it does provide some evidence for Dumbledore’s belief that souls are real things distinct from the body they work on.
Doesn’t the latter tend to involve the former when the ‘sacrifice’ is the life of another?