Even though Harry doesn’t have magical-love-protection, I think we should take note of the fact that it’s probably still in play and fairly broken.
If Quirrell could get Bellatrix to take a deadly spell from for him, he’d have Love’s permanent protection against Dumbledore(if that were the caster). And, with the right amount of cleverness, he could probably arrange for her death to protect all death-eaters in the same way Harry provided protection to all of Hogwarts.
Frankly I wouldn’t put it past Dumbledore to arrange for something similiar, for the greater good.
Powerful infatuations can be induced by the skilful potioneer, but never yet has anyone managed to create the truly unbreakable, eternal, unconditional attachment that alone can be called Love.
What makes you so sure that magical-love-protection exists in MoR at all? Eliezer already changed the Godric’s Hollow script to allow other likely possibilities.
I think Harry’s Memories of Godric’s Hollow are supposed to tell us that Quirrell knew better then to allow the sacrifice to take place, not that it just doesn’t exist. I think we’d probably know if Eliezer had completely removed it, just as he explained his nerfing of Unbreakable vows.
I thought this was showing Voldemort mocking Lilly—he agreed sarcasticaly, since it was obvious he would simply kill Harry next if she surrendered—but accidentally fulfiling the requirements for a ritual:
“You see, Mr. Potter, the chant of every ritual names that which is to be sacrificed, and that which is to be gained. The chant which you gave to Miss Davis spoke, first, of a darkness beyond darkness, buried beneath the flow of time, which knows the gate, and is the gate. And the second thing spoken of, Mr. Potter, was the manifestation of your own presence. And always, in each element of the ritual, first is named that which is sacrificed, and then is said the use commanded of it.”
-Chapter 74
I assumed this was meant to allow events near-identical to canon without Quirrelmort seeming incompetent enough to simply forget about the vast magical power sacrificing yourself for love provides. Indeed, I suspect such a resource does not exist in the MORverse, both because it privileges love—a fairly unremarkable neurochemical state—and because its just too easy to exploit. It seems out of place, somehow.
I think Harry’s Memories of Godric’s Hollow are supposed to tell us that Quirrell knew better then to allow the sacrifice to take place, not that it just doesn’t exist.
What makes you say that? I have a hard time seeing how that conclusion follows from the scene we saw.
I think we’d probably know if Eliezer had completely removed it, just as he explained his nerfing of Unbreakable vows.
He explained his outside-the-universe rationale for nerfing of Unbreakable Vows after the nerfing appeared explicitly in the story. But to my recollection, we have not seen much (if any) talk about the mechanism of Harry’s surviving the Killing Curse. No one, not even Dumbledore, has said a single word about a Sacrificial Love Shield. If Eliezer ever explains the mechanism of Harry’s survival, it will be when the explanation is no longer a significant spoiler for future chapters.
I think it was fairly obvious that he was manipulating Lily into not choosing to sacrifice herself for Harry. She was initially going to sacrifice herself “for him” and with a few choice words Quirrell got her to attack him.
There are many ways Eliezer could have had Harry not be eligible for magic protection, E.g. just have Lily try to kill Voldemort straight away. Instead he made it look exactly as it would if Quirell wasn’t an idiot who didn’t know anything about love magic and was trying to prevent a love-shield.
It’s possible he was just screwing with her, but It seems too coincidental that for him to screw with her in exactly that way.
She was initially going to sacrifice herself “for him” and with a few choice words Quirrell got her to attack him.
Ah, I see. You and I agree, then, that in canon, Rowling intended us to believe that it was the defenselessness of Lily’s sacrifice that protected Harry. That if the scene had gone in canon as it does in MoR, with Lily trying to curse Voldemort, that the protection would not have activated.
But we disagree as to the reason for the differences Eliezer introduced. You think that the universe is the same, and that Voldemort explicitly tried to counteract the Love Shield. But I find, and given what we know of Eliezer’s values I think that he would really find, that Rowling’s implication — that Lily’s defending herself would somehow cheapen her defense of Harry — is morally repugnant. Therefore, I believe that the rules in MoR’s universe are likely different from canon’s.
I think the more likely reason for the difference is not to show that Voldemort was clever enough to dodge canon!shield, but rather to indicate the nature of MoR!shield. Assuming that Voldemort actually did cast the Killing Curse at Harry, and that it actually did rebound and blow Voldemort out of his body, I think what happened — or at least what we’re supposed to believe right now — is that Voldemort unwittingly entered into a magically binding agreement when he taunted Lily. He was amusing himself with his cruelty, but his words were his downfall.
It was love. You see, when dear sweet Lily Potter gave her life for her only son, it provided him with the ultimate protection, I could not touch him. It was old magic, something I should have foreseen.
So, of course, in a universe with a smarter and more competent Voldemort, he does foresee it.
I see your point; the fact that their words appear to follow the structure of a dark ritual is interesting, but it’s also subtle enough that I wouldn’t give too high of a probability to that thought. Too many other things are going on around it that we just don’t understand for us to really be sure of anything, I think, including what we are meant to believe and what we should believe.
Even though Harry doesn’t have magical-love-protection, I think we should take note of the fact that it’s probably still in play and fairly broken.
If Quirrell could get Bellatrix to take a deadly spell from for him, he’d have Love’s permanent protection against Dumbledore(if that were the caster). And, with the right amount of cleverness, he could probably arrange for her death to protect all death-eaters in the same way Harry provided protection to all of Hogwarts.
Frankly I wouldn’t put it past Dumbledore to arrange for something similiar, for the greater good.
The way cannon magic seems to work, love-potion based love probably doesn’t count as Real Love for purposes of protection.
Edit: In fact the quote at the top of the Potter wiki article on love potions says:
Bella isn’t under the influence of a love potion, though.
Oops, I misread what you wrote.
She is however under the influence of equivalently dark arts.
I cannot help but find that quote hilarious.
What makes you so sure that magical-love-protection exists in MoR at all? Eliezer already changed the Godric’s Hollow script to allow other likely possibilities.
I think Harry’s Memories of Godric’s Hollow are supposed to tell us that Quirrell knew better then to allow the sacrifice to take place, not that it just doesn’t exist. I think we’d probably know if Eliezer had completely removed it, just as he explained his nerfing of Unbreakable vows.
I thought this was showing Voldemort mocking Lilly—he agreed sarcasticaly, since it was obvious he would simply kill Harry next if she surrendered—but accidentally fulfiling the requirements for a ritual:
I assumed this was meant to allow events near-identical to canon without Quirrelmort seeming incompetent enough to simply forget about the vast magical power sacrificing yourself for love provides. Indeed, I suspect such a resource does not exist in the MORverse, both because it privileges love—a fairly unremarkable neurochemical state—and because its just too easy to exploit. It seems out of place, somehow.
What makes you say that? I have a hard time seeing how that conclusion follows from the scene we saw.
He explained his outside-the-universe rationale for nerfing of Unbreakable Vows after the nerfing appeared explicitly in the story. But to my recollection, we have not seen much (if any) talk about the mechanism of Harry’s surviving the Killing Curse. No one, not even Dumbledore, has said a single word about a Sacrificial Love Shield. If Eliezer ever explains the mechanism of Harry’s survival, it will be when the explanation is no longer a significant spoiler for future chapters.
I think it was fairly obvious that he was manipulating Lily into not choosing to sacrifice herself for Harry. She was initially going to sacrifice herself “for him” and with a few choice words Quirrell got her to attack him.
There are many ways Eliezer could have had Harry not be eligible for magic protection, E.g. just have Lily try to kill Voldemort straight away. Instead he made it look exactly as it would if Quirell wasn’t an idiot who didn’t know anything about love magic and was trying to prevent a love-shield.
It’s possible he was just screwing with her, but It seems too coincidental that for him to screw with her in exactly that way.
Ah, I see. You and I agree, then, that in canon, Rowling intended us to believe that it was the defenselessness of Lily’s sacrifice that protected Harry. That if the scene had gone in canon as it does in MoR, with Lily trying to curse Voldemort, that the protection would not have activated.
But we disagree as to the reason for the differences Eliezer introduced. You think that the universe is the same, and that Voldemort explicitly tried to counteract the Love Shield. But I find, and given what we know of Eliezer’s values I think that he would really find, that Rowling’s implication — that Lily’s defending herself would somehow cheapen her defense of Harry — is morally repugnant. Therefore, I believe that the rules in MoR’s universe are likely different from canon’s.
I think the more likely reason for the difference is not to show that Voldemort was clever enough to dodge canon!shield, but rather to indicate the nature of MoR!shield. Assuming that Voldemort actually did cast the Killing Curse at Harry, and that it actually did rebound and blow Voldemort out of his body, I think what happened — or at least what we’re supposed to believe right now — is that Voldemort unwittingly entered into a magically binding agreement when he taunted Lily. He was amusing himself with his cruelty, but his words were his downfall.
So, of course, in a universe with a smarter and more competent Voldemort, he does foresee it.
I see your point; the fact that their words appear to follow the structure of a dark ritual is interesting, but it’s also subtle enough that I wouldn’t give too high of a probability to that thought. Too many other things are going on around it that we just don’t understand for us to really be sure of anything, I think, including what we are meant to believe and what we should believe.
Voldemort specifically told her to leave. I think Locke is seeing that as an attempt to prevent the magic from triggering.