In the early to mid story, he only survives due to fast healing and occasional berserk-god mode granted by Kurama.
“If it wasn’t for X he would have died” is not the same thing as “only survives due to X”. X could be one of a set of things, all of which are necessary to his survival. Both these unearned powers, and training, let him survive; without either one he would have been in trouble.
What tricks are there that he learns for himself?
“Learns a trick” is not the same thing as “training”. He can learn to do something from someone else, yet still have to train the skill that he just learned.
Furthermore, by your standards I’m not even sure it’s possible to learn a trick by oneself. Every improvement is either gradual or not. If the improvement is not gradual, you count it as a clever hack. But if the improvement is gradual, it isn’t a new trick, it’s just getting better at an existing trick.
‘Trick’ was bad wording. Let’s call it a skill. What skills does he learn through hard training and couldn’t acquire otherwise?
There are some: the original Rasengan, the various phases of chakra control and shaping, nature chakra control. And these are important, yes. I was wrong when I said there was only one.
However, he also has a much bigger amount of un-earned skills or powers, granted throughout the series (starting at birth!), which completely overshadows the former because they are essentially superpowers that consistently make him far stronger than expected and, by the end, a godlike being who can literally reshape the planet. And these require no training.
Naruto’s lesson isn’t “train hard to realize the potential or the talent you have”. It’s “get multiple superpowers from various sources which make your training and your own talents completely irrelevant by comparison”. The only really good thing to be said for the training is that it was part of him not giving up, and of others not giving up on him.
Trick’ was bad wording. Let’s call it a skill. What skills does he learn through hard training and couldn’t acquire otherwise?
Same objection if you call it a skill—if he gains it suddenly, it doesn’t count as gained through training, but if he gradually gets better at it, it doesn’t count as a new skill.
If he gradually gets better at it, then it does count as a new skill. Regardless, my point was that Naruto’s story is that the skills he gained or developed through training were both practically and story-wise much less relevant than the ones he got as gifts.
What? He’s gradually gotten better at virtually everything he does. (Of course, it’s harder to point and say “he’s gotten gradually better”, bu the nature of being gradual.)
I really, truly never thought I’d be arguing about Naruto of all things on LW :-)
Let’s enumerate Naruto’s ninja skills (that not all ninjas have), the important ones that let him progress in the plot and make him stand out among other ninjas, in approximate order of acquisition:
Fast healing. Due to being the host of the Kyubi. Does not involve training.
Shadow clones. Gained miraculously in a few hours, where few others ever master it even after long study, because he was under emotional stress and Had To Win. Technique does not improve with practice, it’s merely proportional to the amount of chakra he has or expends (which grows during the series). Over time he finds new ways of using it tactically, but he doesn’t get better at using it.
Kyubi involuntary take-over rage mode (e.g. to defeat Orochimaru, and Pain). Obviously does not require training.
Rasengan. He trained for some time, but couldn’t master it. Then he thought of a clever trick that let him master it and would have worked with no training at all. This is the only skill he improves over time, presumably through training and experience, creating bigger and fancier versions. Score one for Naruto. Various combinations with other techniques (shadow clones, nature chakra) also imply training offscreen.
Nature chakra (senjutsu). Only 4 ninjas other than him are named as ever mastering it, over the past 4 generations. He trained for a few months and became much better than at least one of them who practiced it all his life (Jiraya), if not the other three (Orochimaru, Minato and Hashirama), despite a handicap none of the others had (the Kyuubi).
Control of Kyubi’s chakra. He trained for several weeks to accomplish it. We don’t know if this unusual, because the only other to do so is Bee, who taught him, and no-one else ever got the chance to try that we know of.
Voluntary submission and aid of the Kyubi and his chakra, distributing it to others, assuming the Giant Kyubi Narutoform in battle, etc. Achieved making friends and influencing people—“just” being nice. To be fair, he does train a lot at being nice—at least he practices it all the time.
Various world-breaking powers granted by whatshisname, the spirit of his ancestor possessing Naruto.
I think the only thing that actually improved with use and training is the Rasengan, and even that didn’t require any training to gain initially.
Now of course he also knows the basic techniques that all ninjas know, and he does train the acquire and to improve them. Water-walking, chakra nature shaping, even simple things like knife throwing. But he trains at them precisely because everyone does. All the things that make him powerful, important, interesting, and not-dead-long-ago are plot armor and unearned gifts. Take all of them away and he literally wouldn’t have made it out of the Ninja Academy.
Compare that with the way e.g. Lee trains to get skills and to improve them.
I think the only thing that actually improved with use and training is the Rasengan, and even that didn’t require any training to gain initially.
But
He trained for a few months and became much better than at least one of them who practiced it all his life (Jiraya)
He trained for several weeks to accomplish it. We don’t know if this unusual,
To be fair, he does train a lot at being nice—at least he practices it all the time.
Now of course he also knows the basic techniques that all ninjas know, and he does train the acquire and to improve them.
You’re not really arguing that he doesn’t train except for the Rasengan. You’re arguing that he does train, but that training works better for him than for other people because of his unearned advantages, so his training doesn’t really count
But everything you train in works that way. I know how to program a computer. I had to train to do so, but there are other people who would have to train much longer to do the same thing and still other people who could not do it no matter how much training they did. That doesn’t mean I didn’t train, or that my ability to do it is entirely due to luck, even though it’s certainly partly due to luck.
All the things that make him powerful, important, interesting, and not-dead-long-ago are plot armor and unearned gifts. Take all of them away and he literally wouldn’t have made it out of the Ninja Academy.
And if you take away my computer programming potential—a potential which not every person has—I literally wouldn’t have made it out of a real-life academy. I still trained in it.
You’re not really arguing that he doesn’t train except for the Rasengan. You’re arguing that he does train, but that training works better for him than for other people because of his unearned advantages, so his training doesn’t really count
No. I’m arguing that the things he trains at are not the things that make him successful. Even if he trained much less, he would still achieve all the same outcomes due to his unique unearned untrained powers. He succeeds because he’s a privileged magical shonen protagonist, not because he’s training rigorously.
Even if he trained much less, he would still achieve all the same outcomes due to his unique unearned untrained powers.
I don’t believe this. Using your own example, he got senjutsu, and trained for a few months to get good at it. Without that training, would he have had the same outcome? (Remember that shadow clone acts as a training multiplier, but the multiplier doesn’t do any good if there is zero training to multiply.) Without training to use the kyuubi’s chakra (another example of yours), would he have achieved the same outcome?
(Edit: I’m not sure he was able to use shadow clone with senjutsu, so ignore that if it doesn’t apply.)
I said “if he trained much less”, not “if he didn’t train at all”. For senjutsu and the Kyuubi’s chakra he had to train less than others who did it before him, and achieved better results than some of them did. For the other things on my list, he didn’t need to train at all.
My list was supposed to show that his skills tend to follow my analysis, not that all them do so perfectly. I still think it’s a good generalization.
“If it wasn’t for X he would have died” is not the same thing as “only survives due to X”. X could be one of a set of things, all of which are necessary to his survival. Both these unearned powers, and training, let him survive; without either one he would have been in trouble.
“Learns a trick” is not the same thing as “training”. He can learn to do something from someone else, yet still have to train the skill that he just learned.
Furthermore, by your standards I’m not even sure it’s possible to learn a trick by oneself. Every improvement is either gradual or not. If the improvement is not gradual, you count it as a clever hack. But if the improvement is gradual, it isn’t a new trick, it’s just getting better at an existing trick.
‘Trick’ was bad wording. Let’s call it a skill. What skills does he learn through hard training and couldn’t acquire otherwise?
There are some: the original Rasengan, the various phases of chakra control and shaping, nature chakra control. And these are important, yes. I was wrong when I said there was only one.
However, he also has a much bigger amount of un-earned skills or powers, granted throughout the series (starting at birth!), which completely overshadows the former because they are essentially superpowers that consistently make him far stronger than expected and, by the end, a godlike being who can literally reshape the planet. And these require no training.
Naruto’s lesson isn’t “train hard to realize the potential or the talent you have”. It’s “get multiple superpowers from various sources which make your training and your own talents completely irrelevant by comparison”. The only really good thing to be said for the training is that it was part of him not giving up, and of others not giving up on him.
Same objection if you call it a skill—if he gains it suddenly, it doesn’t count as gained through training, but if he gradually gets better at it, it doesn’t count as a new skill.
If he gradually gets better at it, then it does count as a new skill. Regardless, my point was that Naruto’s story is that the skills he gained or developed through training were both practically and story-wise much less relevant than the ones he got as gifts.
What? He’s gradually gotten better at virtually everything he does. (Of course, it’s harder to point and say “he’s gotten gradually better”, bu the nature of being gradual.)
I really, truly never thought I’d be arguing about Naruto of all things on LW :-)
Let’s enumerate Naruto’s ninja skills (that not all ninjas have), the important ones that let him progress in the plot and make him stand out among other ninjas, in approximate order of acquisition:
Fast healing. Due to being the host of the Kyubi. Does not involve training.
Shadow clones. Gained miraculously in a few hours, where few others ever master it even after long study, because he was under emotional stress and Had To Win. Technique does not improve with practice, it’s merely proportional to the amount of chakra he has or expends (which grows during the series). Over time he finds new ways of using it tactically, but he doesn’t get better at using it.
Kyubi involuntary take-over rage mode (e.g. to defeat Orochimaru, and Pain). Obviously does not require training.
Rasengan. He trained for some time, but couldn’t master it. Then he thought of a clever trick that let him master it and would have worked with no training at all. This is the only skill he improves over time, presumably through training and experience, creating bigger and fancier versions. Score one for Naruto. Various combinations with other techniques (shadow clones, nature chakra) also imply training offscreen.
Nature chakra (senjutsu). Only 4 ninjas other than him are named as ever mastering it, over the past 4 generations. He trained for a few months and became much better than at least one of them who practiced it all his life (Jiraya), if not the other three (Orochimaru, Minato and Hashirama), despite a handicap none of the others had (the Kyuubi).
Control of Kyubi’s chakra. He trained for several weeks to accomplish it. We don’t know if this unusual, because the only other to do so is Bee, who taught him, and no-one else ever got the chance to try that we know of.
Voluntary submission and aid of the Kyubi and his chakra, distributing it to others, assuming the Giant Kyubi Narutoform in battle, etc. Achieved making friends and influencing people—“just” being nice. To be fair, he does train a lot at being nice—at least he practices it all the time.
Various world-breaking powers granted by whatshisname, the spirit of his ancestor possessing Naruto.
I think the only thing that actually improved with use and training is the Rasengan, and even that didn’t require any training to gain initially.
Now of course he also knows the basic techniques that all ninjas know, and he does train the acquire and to improve them. Water-walking, chakra nature shaping, even simple things like knife throwing. But he trains at them precisely because everyone does. All the things that make him powerful, important, interesting, and not-dead-long-ago are plot armor and unearned gifts. Take all of them away and he literally wouldn’t have made it out of the Ninja Academy.
Compare that with the way e.g. Lee trains to get skills and to improve them.
But
You’re not really arguing that he doesn’t train except for the Rasengan. You’re arguing that he does train, but that training works better for him than for other people because of his unearned advantages, so his training doesn’t really count
But everything you train in works that way. I know how to program a computer. I had to train to do so, but there are other people who would have to train much longer to do the same thing and still other people who could not do it no matter how much training they did. That doesn’t mean I didn’t train, or that my ability to do it is entirely due to luck, even though it’s certainly partly due to luck.
And if you take away my computer programming potential—a potential which not every person has—I literally wouldn’t have made it out of a real-life academy. I still trained in it.
No. I’m arguing that the things he trains at are not the things that make him successful. Even if he trained much less, he would still achieve all the same outcomes due to his unique unearned untrained powers. He succeeds because he’s a privileged magical shonen protagonist, not because he’s training rigorously.
I don’t believe this. Using your own example, he got senjutsu, and trained for a few months to get good at it. Without that training, would he have had the same outcome? (Remember that shadow clone acts as a training multiplier, but the multiplier doesn’t do any good if there is zero training to multiply.) Without training to use the kyuubi’s chakra (another example of yours), would he have achieved the same outcome?
(Edit: I’m not sure he was able to use shadow clone with senjutsu, so ignore that if it doesn’t apply.)
I said “if he trained much less”, not “if he didn’t train at all”. For senjutsu and the Kyuubi’s chakra he had to train less than others who did it before him, and achieved better results than some of them did. For the other things on my list, he didn’t need to train at all.
My list was supposed to show that his skills tend to follow my analysis, not that all them do so perfectly. I still think it’s a good generalization.