The primary benefit of debate is not convincing the other side. It is providing a breakdown of both sides’ positions for the audience so that they can make an informed decision.
I have no doubt that this is true in some cases, but it is not true in others.
If you stage a “debate” between evolutionary scientists and creationists, give both sides equal speaking time, treat both with the same respect and social credibility signals, pretend that both are equally interested in the scientific truth, then you are doing the common good a disfavor.
Because the very framing of the debate is happening in the wrong terms. It just allows people whose true rejection is “it’s in the bible” or “God said so” to pretend that they’re interested in something else, such as the common good or the scientific truth.
If we had true freedom of religion, the debate about voluntary euthanasia would be over (*). Logically, it’s a total no-brainer. To pretend that Catholic spokespeople give two shits about the common good, and calculate some kind of utilitarian calculus and then conclude one way or another, is total bullshit.
This is not their true rejection, and everybody knows it. To let them publicly pretend otherwise is doing the true common good a disfavor, because it allows them to implicitly attack other people’s freedom of religion, without explicitly having to say, “Look, that freedom of religion thing is fine as long as everybody obeys our religious demands—but not otherwise.”
Because the latter is an open attack on the Schelling point of basic human rights and implies a form of defection that they do not want the rest of society to reciprocate. They are rational, instrumentally, in lying about this and pretending otherwise, but we are irrational, instrumentally, in letting it happen.
(*) There would still be discussion about euthanasaia’s legal details, but the fundementals would be obvious. Perhaps it would be illegal for voluntary members of religious organizations who decide it, but that is just another form of consent.
I don’t think this would be over, because potential arguments is not simply “god forbade it” but more like “what kind of culture do you want?” I mean culture wars are culture wars. The weird thing is that the the conservative side of the culture wars sticks to the god-forbade-it bullshit instead of actually doing their “job” and debating culture. For example something like “de-tabooing the ending of human life sends the wrong kind of cultural message around and makes those people who don’t think logically but rather associatively more likely to murder, as they will not see the ending of life in itself as bad, but only the lack of consent there” is a strong enough argument to at least say this kind of debate would not be already over. I mean it should be the conservatives job to say things like this, to actually, really debate culture in a culture war. Instead, they go for the stupid god-forbade-it stuff. Frankly I think the primary reason the world is marching towards a liberal direction is most conservatives being way too stupid to represent their own case halfway convincingly. They engage in culture wars, but they talk about just about anything but actual culture.
This can be kind of frustrating if you think actually sensible conservative arguments should be useful for brakes on rash social change. The best way to steelman them is IMHO de-meta it (is that a word?) so basicallly someone says “god forbade the ending of human life” then you can think “maybe there are really a lot of people out there who would would be murderers if not for their belief that god forbade the ending of human life. maybe for this reason it is not such a good idea to send out the message consensually ending it is okay, because they don’t give a crap about consent, only about the god-forbade thing and if we weaken that they will turn into murderers?”
So the point is instead of using these conservatives as debate partners, you can use their arguments as signals of potential unforeseen social consequences.
I really wish for a better conservatism, this is really frustrating this way.
You’re right that the logical structure of consequentialist arguments are not inherently bad. The argument you mention is the class of argument that I find relevant, and many other people too.
But my point is that this is why we can expect endless rationalization in this form.
It is very easy to turn your argument upside down: “Allowing the state, rather than the private individual, to decide about the time and manner of the individual’s death sends the wrong kind of cultural message around and makes those people who don’t think logically but rather associatively more likely to violate people in other ways and other areas of life against their will, as they will not see the destruction of the informed consent principle in itself as bad, but only the mere end of a life whose span was limited anyway.”
You can make the same framing for making people suffer against their will, and even murdering people if you frame it in terms of “ownership of life” (the government decides who has to live and who has to die).
The religious people who honestly say, “It’s a sin”, can be countered with, “That is your right to believe, but freedom of religion says you can’t ban something for everyone just because you think it’s a sin. If you want freedom of religion for yourself, you have to accept it for others, which means you have to try to convince people instead of coercing them.”
That is the cultural foundation for a peaceful existence in a pluralistic society.
Ah… I see. You are applying to the sense of libertarianism that is very strong in American culture, the idea that it is thinkable, possible and even normal for the people to allow or not allow something for the state. To me it is a very alien concept, I am used to it being the other way around, the state decided if we are allowed something or not. I mean it was very clearly the case in the time of absolute monarchy, so up to roughly 1920, and basically just democratizing it did not change it. Just because now kings are elected for 4 years, there are checks and balances, and lists of rights they are not allowed to violate, the basic setup did not change.
Can you formulate it in a way that someone who feels like a subject of the state who does not feel entitled to tell the state what it may or may not do can still identify with it?
The state is not an omnipotent entity who can make arbitrary choices. Its institutions are made of people, and its power is affected by how legitimate it is seen to be. Private individuals can make it stronger or weaker through their political, economic choices or even by breaking the law and using physical violence.
Freedom of religion is already a constitutional right in most western democracies and it is not at all futile to insist on it when religious lobby groups try to undermine it.
If you think of yourself as a slave who has no rights nor influence against the people who comprise “the state”, then you are factually wrong. But I’m sure those people are happy if you belive it, as it makes power use (or abuse) easier for them.
This is not their true rejection, and everybody knows it.
So? Just because they weren’t personally convinced by an argument (because they don’t go for arguments at all) doesn’t mean they can’t legitimately believe they have an argument that could convince someone who doesn’t do the faith thing.
It’s no different from wanting someone to do X and trying to convince them that X is in their own self-interest. That’s probably not why you want them to do X, but so what? It’s a valid reason for the purposes of convincing them.
Of course, there is good reason to be wary of someone who isn’t giving you their true rejection, because motivated reasoning increases the chance of mistakes, but not giving you their true rejection isn’t automatically dishonest.
It means they’re lying about their motivation and you give them false respect for it.
The practical reality is that they will use arguments as soldiers in a religious culture war and innocent people are going to be the victim of the practical social consequences of it.
Practical ethics implies practical memetics; if you are faced with a culture war you would do well to remember it’s a war, not a benevolent debate in good faith.
The primary benefit of debate is not convincing the other side. It is providing a breakdown of both sides’ positions for the audience so that they can make an informed decision.
I have no doubt that this is true in some cases, but it is not true in others.
If you stage a “debate” between evolutionary scientists and creationists, give both sides equal speaking time, treat both with the same respect and social credibility signals, pretend that both are equally interested in the scientific truth, then you are doing the common good a disfavor.
Because the very framing of the debate is happening in the wrong terms. It just allows people whose true rejection is “it’s in the bible” or “God said so” to pretend that they’re interested in something else, such as the common good or the scientific truth.
If we had true freedom of religion, the debate about voluntary euthanasia would be over (*). Logically, it’s a total no-brainer. To pretend that Catholic spokespeople give two shits about the common good, and calculate some kind of utilitarian calculus and then conclude one way or another, is total bullshit.
This is not their true rejection, and everybody knows it. To let them publicly pretend otherwise is doing the true common good a disfavor, because it allows them to implicitly attack other people’s freedom of religion, without explicitly having to say, “Look, that freedom of religion thing is fine as long as everybody obeys our religious demands—but not otherwise.”
Because the latter is an open attack on the Schelling point of basic human rights and implies a form of defection that they do not want the rest of society to reciprocate. They are rational, instrumentally, in lying about this and pretending otherwise, but we are irrational, instrumentally, in letting it happen.
(*) There would still be discussion about euthanasaia’s legal details, but the fundementals would be obvious. Perhaps it would be illegal for voluntary members of religious organizations who decide it, but that is just another form of consent.
I don’t think this would be over, because potential arguments is not simply “god forbade it” but more like “what kind of culture do you want?” I mean culture wars are culture wars. The weird thing is that the the conservative side of the culture wars sticks to the god-forbade-it bullshit instead of actually doing their “job” and debating culture. For example something like “de-tabooing the ending of human life sends the wrong kind of cultural message around and makes those people who don’t think logically but rather associatively more likely to murder, as they will not see the ending of life in itself as bad, but only the lack of consent there” is a strong enough argument to at least say this kind of debate would not be already over. I mean it should be the conservatives job to say things like this, to actually, really debate culture in a culture war. Instead, they go for the stupid god-forbade-it stuff. Frankly I think the primary reason the world is marching towards a liberal direction is most conservatives being way too stupid to represent their own case halfway convincingly. They engage in culture wars, but they talk about just about anything but actual culture.
This can be kind of frustrating if you think actually sensible conservative arguments should be useful for brakes on rash social change. The best way to steelman them is IMHO de-meta it (is that a word?) so basicallly someone says “god forbade the ending of human life” then you can think “maybe there are really a lot of people out there who would would be murderers if not for their belief that god forbade the ending of human life. maybe for this reason it is not such a good idea to send out the message consensually ending it is okay, because they don’t give a crap about consent, only about the god-forbade thing and if we weaken that they will turn into murderers?”
So the point is instead of using these conservatives as debate partners, you can use their arguments as signals of potential unforeseen social consequences.
I really wish for a better conservatism, this is really frustrating this way.
You’re right that the logical structure of consequentialist arguments are not inherently bad. The argument you mention is the class of argument that I find relevant, and many other people too.
But my point is that this is why we can expect endless rationalization in this form.
It is very easy to turn your argument upside down: “Allowing the state, rather than the private individual, to decide about the time and manner of the individual’s death sends the wrong kind of cultural message around and makes those people who don’t think logically but rather associatively more likely to violate people in other ways and other areas of life against their will, as they will not see the destruction of the informed consent principle in itself as bad, but only the mere end of a life whose span was limited anyway.”
You can make the same framing for making people suffer against their will, and even murdering people if you frame it in terms of “ownership of life” (the government decides who has to live and who has to die).
The religious people who honestly say, “It’s a sin”, can be countered with, “That is your right to believe, but freedom of religion says you can’t ban something for everyone just because you think it’s a sin. If you want freedom of religion for yourself, you have to accept it for others, which means you have to try to convince people instead of coercing them.”
That is the cultural foundation for a peaceful existence in a pluralistic society.
Ah… I see. You are applying to the sense of libertarianism that is very strong in American culture, the idea that it is thinkable, possible and even normal for the people to allow or not allow something for the state. To me it is a very alien concept, I am used to it being the other way around, the state decided if we are allowed something or not. I mean it was very clearly the case in the time of absolute monarchy, so up to roughly 1920, and basically just democratizing it did not change it. Just because now kings are elected for 4 years, there are checks and balances, and lists of rights they are not allowed to violate, the basic setup did not change.
Can you formulate it in a way that someone who feels like a subject of the state who does not feel entitled to tell the state what it may or may not do can still identify with it?
The state is not an omnipotent entity who can make arbitrary choices. Its institutions are made of people, and its power is affected by how legitimate it is seen to be. Private individuals can make it stronger or weaker through their political, economic choices or even by breaking the law and using physical violence.
Freedom of religion is already a constitutional right in most western democracies and it is not at all futile to insist on it when religious lobby groups try to undermine it.
If you think of yourself as a slave who has no rights nor influence against the people who comprise “the state”, then you are factually wrong. But I’m sure those people are happy if you belive it, as it makes power use (or abuse) easier for them.
So? Just because they weren’t personally convinced by an argument (because they don’t go for arguments at all) doesn’t mean they can’t legitimately believe they have an argument that could convince someone who doesn’t do the faith thing.
It’s no different from wanting someone to do X and trying to convince them that X is in their own self-interest. That’s probably not why you want them to do X, but so what? It’s a valid reason for the purposes of convincing them.
Of course, there is good reason to be wary of someone who isn’t giving you their true rejection, because motivated reasoning increases the chance of mistakes, but not giving you their true rejection isn’t automatically dishonest.
It means they’re lying about their motivation and you give them false respect for it.
The practical reality is that they will use arguments as soldiers in a religious culture war and innocent people are going to be the victim of the practical social consequences of it.
Practical ethics implies practical memetics; if you are faced with a culture war you would do well to remember it’s a war, not a benevolent debate in good faith.