I don’t think this would be over, because potential arguments is not simply “god forbade it” but more like “what kind of culture do you want?” I mean culture wars are culture wars. The weird thing is that the the conservative side of the culture wars sticks to the god-forbade-it bullshit instead of actually doing their “job” and debating culture. For example something like “de-tabooing the ending of human life sends the wrong kind of cultural message around and makes those people who don’t think logically but rather associatively more likely to murder, as they will not see the ending of life in itself as bad, but only the lack of consent there” is a strong enough argument to at least say this kind of debate would not be already over. I mean it should be the conservatives job to say things like this, to actually, really debate culture in a culture war. Instead, they go for the stupid god-forbade-it stuff. Frankly I think the primary reason the world is marching towards a liberal direction is most conservatives being way too stupid to represent their own case halfway convincingly. They engage in culture wars, but they talk about just about anything but actual culture.
This can be kind of frustrating if you think actually sensible conservative arguments should be useful for brakes on rash social change. The best way to steelman them is IMHO de-meta it (is that a word?) so basicallly someone says “god forbade the ending of human life” then you can think “maybe there are really a lot of people out there who would would be murderers if not for their belief that god forbade the ending of human life. maybe for this reason it is not such a good idea to send out the message consensually ending it is okay, because they don’t give a crap about consent, only about the god-forbade thing and if we weaken that they will turn into murderers?”
So the point is instead of using these conservatives as debate partners, you can use their arguments as signals of potential unforeseen social consequences.
I really wish for a better conservatism, this is really frustrating this way.
You’re right that the logical structure of consequentialist arguments are not inherently bad. The argument you mention is the class of argument that I find relevant, and many other people too.
But my point is that this is why we can expect endless rationalization in this form.
It is very easy to turn your argument upside down: “Allowing the state, rather than the private individual, to decide about the time and manner of the individual’s death sends the wrong kind of cultural message around and makes those people who don’t think logically but rather associatively more likely to violate people in other ways and other areas of life against their will, as they will not see the destruction of the informed consent principle in itself as bad, but only the mere end of a life whose span was limited anyway.”
You can make the same framing for making people suffer against their will, and even murdering people if you frame it in terms of “ownership of life” (the government decides who has to live and who has to die).
The religious people who honestly say, “It’s a sin”, can be countered with, “That is your right to believe, but freedom of religion says you can’t ban something for everyone just because you think it’s a sin. If you want freedom of religion for yourself, you have to accept it for others, which means you have to try to convince people instead of coercing them.”
That is the cultural foundation for a peaceful existence in a pluralistic society.
Ah… I see. You are applying to the sense of libertarianism that is very strong in American culture, the idea that it is thinkable, possible and even normal for the people to allow or not allow something for the state. To me it is a very alien concept, I am used to it being the other way around, the state decided if we are allowed something or not. I mean it was very clearly the case in the time of absolute monarchy, so up to roughly 1920, and basically just democratizing it did not change it. Just because now kings are elected for 4 years, there are checks and balances, and lists of rights they are not allowed to violate, the basic setup did not change.
Can you formulate it in a way that someone who feels like a subject of the state who does not feel entitled to tell the state what it may or may not do can still identify with it?
The state is not an omnipotent entity who can make arbitrary choices. Its institutions are made of people, and its power is affected by how legitimate it is seen to be. Private individuals can make it stronger or weaker through their political, economic choices or even by breaking the law and using physical violence.
Freedom of religion is already a constitutional right in most western democracies and it is not at all futile to insist on it when religious lobby groups try to undermine it.
If you think of yourself as a slave who has no rights nor influence against the people who comprise “the state”, then you are factually wrong. But I’m sure those people are happy if you belive it, as it makes power use (or abuse) easier for them.
I don’t think this would be over, because potential arguments is not simply “god forbade it” but more like “what kind of culture do you want?” I mean culture wars are culture wars. The weird thing is that the the conservative side of the culture wars sticks to the god-forbade-it bullshit instead of actually doing their “job” and debating culture. For example something like “de-tabooing the ending of human life sends the wrong kind of cultural message around and makes those people who don’t think logically but rather associatively more likely to murder, as they will not see the ending of life in itself as bad, but only the lack of consent there” is a strong enough argument to at least say this kind of debate would not be already over. I mean it should be the conservatives job to say things like this, to actually, really debate culture in a culture war. Instead, they go for the stupid god-forbade-it stuff. Frankly I think the primary reason the world is marching towards a liberal direction is most conservatives being way too stupid to represent their own case halfway convincingly. They engage in culture wars, but they talk about just about anything but actual culture.
This can be kind of frustrating if you think actually sensible conservative arguments should be useful for brakes on rash social change. The best way to steelman them is IMHO de-meta it (is that a word?) so basicallly someone says “god forbade the ending of human life” then you can think “maybe there are really a lot of people out there who would would be murderers if not for their belief that god forbade the ending of human life. maybe for this reason it is not such a good idea to send out the message consensually ending it is okay, because they don’t give a crap about consent, only about the god-forbade thing and if we weaken that they will turn into murderers?”
So the point is instead of using these conservatives as debate partners, you can use their arguments as signals of potential unforeseen social consequences.
I really wish for a better conservatism, this is really frustrating this way.
You’re right that the logical structure of consequentialist arguments are not inherently bad. The argument you mention is the class of argument that I find relevant, and many other people too.
But my point is that this is why we can expect endless rationalization in this form.
It is very easy to turn your argument upside down: “Allowing the state, rather than the private individual, to decide about the time and manner of the individual’s death sends the wrong kind of cultural message around and makes those people who don’t think logically but rather associatively more likely to violate people in other ways and other areas of life against their will, as they will not see the destruction of the informed consent principle in itself as bad, but only the mere end of a life whose span was limited anyway.”
You can make the same framing for making people suffer against their will, and even murdering people if you frame it in terms of “ownership of life” (the government decides who has to live and who has to die).
The religious people who honestly say, “It’s a sin”, can be countered with, “That is your right to believe, but freedom of religion says you can’t ban something for everyone just because you think it’s a sin. If you want freedom of religion for yourself, you have to accept it for others, which means you have to try to convince people instead of coercing them.”
That is the cultural foundation for a peaceful existence in a pluralistic society.
Ah… I see. You are applying to the sense of libertarianism that is very strong in American culture, the idea that it is thinkable, possible and even normal for the people to allow or not allow something for the state. To me it is a very alien concept, I am used to it being the other way around, the state decided if we are allowed something or not. I mean it was very clearly the case in the time of absolute monarchy, so up to roughly 1920, and basically just democratizing it did not change it. Just because now kings are elected for 4 years, there are checks and balances, and lists of rights they are not allowed to violate, the basic setup did not change.
Can you formulate it in a way that someone who feels like a subject of the state who does not feel entitled to tell the state what it may or may not do can still identify with it?
The state is not an omnipotent entity who can make arbitrary choices. Its institutions are made of people, and its power is affected by how legitimate it is seen to be. Private individuals can make it stronger or weaker through their political, economic choices or even by breaking the law and using physical violence.
Freedom of religion is already a constitutional right in most western democracies and it is not at all futile to insist on it when religious lobby groups try to undermine it.
If you think of yourself as a slave who has no rights nor influence against the people who comprise “the state”, then you are factually wrong. But I’m sure those people are happy if you belive it, as it makes power use (or abuse) easier for them.