Suppose there is a statement that happens to be true, but which will also lower someone’s or a group’s status resulting in offence. Will you chose not to offend and keep the statement to yourself, or will you say it?
You haven’t given enough information. There are a lot of offensive things that “happen to be true” that you don’t say all the time. It being offensive is a good reason not to say it, but presumably you have in mind some reason to say it. One would need to evaluate that against the ‘giving offense’ to see which one wins.
There are a lot of offensive things that “happen to be true” that you don’t say all the time.
Quick heavy-handed illustration:
You meet someone who was badly disfigured in an accident, let’s say this guy, and after taking a look at him say “Holy shit, you’re ugly!”
This is a completely true statement (being scalped by industrial machinery will do that), also rude and offensive, and has very little reason to need saying.
What about “everything that can be destroyed by the truth should be”? There might be an inconsistency between saying maximally true things and not offending people. What is the priority on LW?
On a somewhat related note, I can see it already. You spend years carefully programming your AI, calculating it’s friendliness, making sure it is perfectly bayesian and perfectly honest. You are finally done. You turn it on and the first line it prints: Oh dear, you are quite ugly.
What about “everything that can be destroyed by the truth should be”?
That statement obviously only applies when there is falsehood to be destroyed. I’m sure that guy knows he is not especially pretty. Telling him he’s ugly may be truthful but it’s also kind of like yelling “You’re really hot” at the sun.
If I were badly disfigured I would much prefer people saying that to my face than babbling off a lie. I would even prefer it to silence. If I’m talking to someone and they say nothing of my appearance I’m sure I could tell that they were at least thinking about it. I would much prefer that they think about it out loud than “behind my back” in their head.
Plus, my experience has always been that mutual insults are a great way for people to become friends. Maybe it’s the “civilized” version of play fighting that many animals (and human kids) engage in.
Under which circumstances would ‘saying true things’ win and under which other circumstances ‘not saying anything’ would win? I would also add, under which circumstances would you ‘say something you believe to be false’ or ‘agree with something you believe to be false’ in order to avoid offense?
Um. That’s a very complicated question about life, the universe, and everything. There are many circumstances during which saying particular things are beneficial.
Maybe some examples would help?
You and your friend Anna (to pick a name) are having ice cream. She’s talking about how she felt when her mom died. You point out in response that the atomic weight of molybdenum is 95.94. This is very unhelpful and probably should not have been said, and she’s offended that you don’t care about her feelings as much as she thought you did.
Now you and your friend Anna are being held at gunpoint. You are hooked up to a lie detector and asked if you think Anna looks fat in those jeans. If you lie, they shoot you both. Anna would be offended if you think she looks fat. (ETA: as it happens, you do think so.) In this case, it is probably best not to lie.
And there are various other sorts of cases as well.
I think this is a life skill which you’ve developed already but aren’t thinking of as the same thing. The stereotypical example: your mother looks terrible in a dress but really loves it and she doesn’t need to impress anyone, so you might say she looks good anyway. That’s just one point in an extremely wide spectrum the issue encloses, in which you probably have feelings already on what’s best when. I think the decisions are personal, dependent on the situation, and often hotly debated.
You haven’t given enough information. There are a lot of offensive things that “happen to be true” that you don’t say all the time. It being offensive is a good reason not to say it, but presumably you have in mind some reason to say it. One would need to evaluate that against the ‘giving offense’ to see which one wins.
Quick heavy-handed illustration:
You meet someone who was badly disfigured in an accident, let’s say this guy, and after taking a look at him say “Holy shit, you’re ugly!”
This is a completely true statement (being scalped by industrial machinery will do that), also rude and offensive, and has very little reason to need saying.
What about “everything that can be destroyed by the truth should be”? There might be an inconsistency between saying maximally true things and not offending people. What is the priority on LW?
On a somewhat related note, I can see it already. You spend years carefully programming your AI, calculating it’s friendliness, making sure it is perfectly bayesian and perfectly honest. You are finally done. You turn it on and the first line it prints: Oh dear, you are quite ugly.
That statement obviously only applies when there is falsehood to be destroyed. I’m sure that guy knows he is not especially pretty. Telling him he’s ugly may be truthful but it’s also kind of like yelling “You’re really hot” at the sun.
If I were badly disfigured I would much prefer people saying that to my face than babbling off a lie. I would even prefer it to silence. If I’m talking to someone and they say nothing of my appearance I’m sure I could tell that they were at least thinking about it. I would much prefer that they think about it out loud than “behind my back” in their head.
Plus, my experience has always been that mutual insults are a great way for people to become friends. Maybe it’s the “civilized” version of play fighting that many animals (and human kids) engage in.
Beware of hypotheticals.
Would you also prefer it to talking about something relevant, like whatever you happened to be meeting about?
“Hi, I’m Amy. Nice to meet you. Now to get right down to business, let’s look at this chart...”
“Hi, I’m Amy. Nice to meet you. Man, you’re ugly...
In most cases, there’s nothing to be gained by #2.
Under which circumstances would ‘saying true things’ win and under which other circumstances ‘not saying anything’ would win? I would also add, under which circumstances would you ‘say something you believe to be false’ or ‘agree with something you believe to be false’ in order to avoid offense?
Um. That’s a very complicated question about life, the universe, and everything. There are many circumstances during which saying particular things are beneficial.
Maybe some examples would help?
You and your friend Anna (to pick a name) are having ice cream. She’s talking about how she felt when her mom died. You point out in response that the atomic weight of molybdenum is 95.94. This is very unhelpful and probably should not have been said, and she’s offended that you don’t care about her feelings as much as she thought you did.
Now you and your friend Anna are being held at gunpoint. You are hooked up to a lie detector and asked if you think Anna looks fat in those jeans. If you lie, they shoot you both. Anna would be offended if you think she looks fat. (ETA: as it happens, you do think so.) In this case, it is probably best not to lie.
And there are various other sorts of cases as well.
I think this is a life skill which you’ve developed already but aren’t thinking of as the same thing. The stereotypical example: your mother looks terrible in a dress but really loves it and she doesn’t need to impress anyone, so you might say she looks good anyway. That’s just one point in an extremely wide spectrum the issue encloses, in which you probably have feelings already on what’s best when. I think the decisions are personal, dependent on the situation, and often hotly debated.
How do these questions relate to your first comment? Are you asking if I would lie to not give offense?