If we assume he has goals other than simply being a self-abasing misanthrope, the attitude Annoyance is showing is far from rational. Arbitrarily defining the vast majority of humans as useless “problems” is, ironically, itself a useless and problematic belief, and it represents an even more fundamental failure than being Spocklike—Spock, at least, does not repeatedly shoot himself in the foot and then seek to blame anything but himself.
I’ve pretty much figured that out. If nothing else, Annoyance is being an excellent example of that right now.
Next question: Is it something about this method of approaching rationality that encourages that failure mode? How did Annoyance fall off the path, and can I avoid doing the same if I proceed?
I’m starting to think that the answer to that last question is yes, though.
How did Annoyance fall off the path, and can I avoid doing the same if I proceed?
While I find conversations with Annoyance rather void, I would encourage you to not try and lift (him ?) up as an example of falling off the path or entering failure modes. If you care about the question I would make a post using generic examples. This does a few things:
Gets you away from any emotional responses to Annoyance (both in yourself and anyone else).
Provides a clear-cut example that can be picked apart without making this entire thread required reading. It also cleans up many straw men and red herrings before they happen, since the specifics in the thread are mostly unneeded with relation to the question you have just asked.
Brings attention to the core problem that needs to be addressed and avoids any specific diagnoses of Annoyance (for better or worse)
That’s very good advice. However, I’m not going to take it today, and probably won’t at all. It seems more useful at this point to take a break from this entirely and give myself a chance to sort out the information I’ve already gained.
I’ll definitely be interested in looking at it, in a few days, if someone else wants to come up with that example and continue thinking about it here.
If we assume he has goals other than simply being a self-abasing misanthrope, the attitude Annoyance is showing is far from rational.
A logically incorrect statement. An attitude is rational if it consistently and explicitly follows from data gathered about the world and its functioning. As there are other consequences from my behavior other than the one you so contemptuously dismiss, and you have no grounds for deciding what my goals are or whether my actions achieve them, your claim is simply wrong. Trivially so, in fact.
Arbitrarily defining the vast majority of humans as useless “problems”
It’s not arbitrary.
The rational thing to do when confronted with a position you don’t understand is ask yourself “Why did that person adopt that position?”
If your actions accomplish your goals, fine. However, it’s safe to say most of the people here don’t want to be Annoyances, and it’s important to point out that your behavior does not reflect a requirement or implication of rationality.
If you disagree, I hope you will explicitly list the assumptions leading to your belief that it’s a good idea to treat people with condescension.
The rational thing to do when confronted with a position you don’t understand is ask yourself “Why did that person adopt that position?”
[...]
Worthwhile questions are rarely answered easily.
Search for an answer requires the question to be worthwhile, which is far from prior expectation for the research of inane-sounding positions people hold.
Search for an answer requires the question to be worthwhile, which is far from prior expectation for inane-sounding positions.
If you want to convince someone of something, it’s generally a good idea to understand why they believe what they believe now. People generally have to be convinced out of one belief before they can be convinced into another, and you can’t refute or reframe their evidence unless you know what the evidence is.
Even if their reasoning is epistemologically unsound, if you know how it’s unsound, you can utilize the same type of reasoning to change their belief. For example, if someone only believes things they “see with their own eyes”, you would then know it is a waste of time to try to prove something to them mathematically.
I agree, but in this case the benefit comes not from the expectation of finding insight in the person’s position, but from the expectation of successful communication (education), which was not the motivation referred in Annoyance’s comment.
If we assume he has goals other than simply being a self-abasing misanthrope, the attitude Annoyance is showing is far from rational. Arbitrarily defining the vast majority of humans as useless “problems” is, ironically, itself a useless and problematic belief, and it represents an even more fundamental failure than being Spocklike—Spock, at least, does not repeatedly shoot himself in the foot and then seek to blame anything but himself.
I’ve pretty much figured that out. If nothing else, Annoyance is being an excellent example of that right now.
Next question: Is it something about this method of approaching rationality that encourages that failure mode? How did Annoyance fall off the path, and can I avoid doing the same if I proceed?
I’m starting to think that the answer to that last question is yes, though.
While I find conversations with Annoyance rather void, I would encourage you to not try and lift (him ?) up as an example of falling off the path or entering failure modes. If you care about the question I would make a post using generic examples. This does a few things:
Gets you away from any emotional responses to Annoyance (both in yourself and anyone else).
Provides a clear-cut example that can be picked apart without making this entire thread required reading. It also cleans up many straw men and red herrings before they happen, since the specifics in the thread are mostly unneeded with relation to the question you have just asked.
Brings attention to the core problem that needs to be addressed and avoids any specific diagnoses of Annoyance (for better or worse)
That’s very good advice. However, I’m not going to take it today, and probably won’t at all. It seems more useful at this point to take a break from this entirely and give myself a chance to sort out the information I’ve already gained.
I’ll definitely be interested in looking at it, in a few days, if someone else wants to come up with that example and continue thinking about it here.
I would agree.
I pass. The discussion of that topic would be interesting to me but writing the article is not. I have too many partial articles as it is… :P
A logically incorrect statement. An attitude is rational if it consistently and explicitly follows from data gathered about the world and its functioning. As there are other consequences from my behavior other than the one you so contemptuously dismiss, and you have no grounds for deciding what my goals are or whether my actions achieve them, your claim is simply wrong. Trivially so, in fact.
It’s not arbitrary.
The rational thing to do when confronted with a position you don’t understand is ask yourself “Why did that person adopt that position?”
If your actions accomplish your goals, fine. However, it’s safe to say most of the people here don’t want to be Annoyances, and it’s important to point out that your behavior does not reflect a requirement or implication of rationality.
If you disagree, I hope you will explicitly list the assumptions leading to your belief that it’s a good idea to treat people with condescension.
This is of low value, if the answer doesn’t come easily.
Easy answers are rarely worthwhile. Worthwhile questions are rarely answered easily.
Search for an answer requires the question to be worthwhile, which is far from prior expectation for the research of inane-sounding positions people hold.
If you want to convince someone of something, it’s generally a good idea to understand why they believe what they believe now. People generally have to be convinced out of one belief before they can be convinced into another, and you can’t refute or reframe their evidence unless you know what the evidence is.
Even if their reasoning is epistemologically unsound, if you know how it’s unsound, you can utilize the same type of reasoning to change their belief. For example, if someone only believes things they “see with their own eyes”, you would then know it is a waste of time to try to prove something to them mathematically.
I agree, but in this case the benefit comes not from the expectation of finding insight in the person’s position, but from the expectation of successful communication (education), which was not the motivation referred in Annoyance’s comment.