It does seem to—which made me think about exactly which cases I’d consider one or the other. So here goes again… :)
In the example above—I am trying avoid causing hurt to the children—therefore if I hurt one person because it’s the only way to avoid hurting multiple people, it is ethically-difficult… but, in my head, ok in the end because the re is no other option available. If you had the opportunity to choose even less collateral damage (eg slamming on the brakes) you would do so.
In the case of intentionally hurting one woman in order to gain advantage for onself—this does not apply. Especially because you are intentionally hurting another person to help onseself—the sex is the eventual goal… but the hurt is chosen as a necessary step for that goal—there are no other means being considered.
In the case of breaking up with a person—you are intending that you and they not be with one another anymore—you are not hurting them with the intent to hurt them—therefore the “collateral damage” is unintentional. - Also the expectation is that you will both be better off apart (on average). Yes, there are rare cases where an unstable person will not recover… but on average I’d say that if you were trying to have a relationship with the kind of person that was suicidal—you might be better off not being with them… that is obviously an ethical dilemma that will never be covered by a cut-and-dried rule.… but I can safely say that in my head—if I were to leave somebody whom I suspected to be suicidal—I’d be leaving them, not with the intent that they choose to commit suicide—therefore the harm would be unintentional (also, I’d make sure to call somebody that could help them with their suicidal tendencies… but that’s by-the-by).
As to the case where we’re deliberately choosing to kill people that are located in a civilian location… I’d consider it ethically questionable, because you are deliberately choosing to kill people… not just to avoid killing other people (as in the schoolchildren case).
There is intent to kill—even if these particular people are not part of the main intent.
I’d consider it less ethically questionable if they found a way to try to kill these targets without damage to the surrounding areas.
… in fact, in thinking more, I think a big differene is the actual intent itself. Are you trying to Gain by the hurt, or to Reduce a Bad Thing?
I think it’s more ok to hurt to reduce a worse Bad Thing, than it is to simply Gain something that you’d otherwise not have.
Let’s assume for the sake of discussion that more pain is bad, and less pain is good. (You already seem to be assuming this, which is fine, I just want to make it explicit.)
Most of these examples are cases of evaluating which available option results in less pain, and endorsing that option. This seems straightforward enough given that assumption.
The example of breaking up with someone is not clearly a case of that, which sounds like the reason you tie yourself in knots trying to account for it.
So, OK… let me approach that example from another direction. If I suffer mildly by staying with my partner, and my partner suffers massively by my leaving him, and the only rule we have is “more suffering is worse than less suffering,” then it follows that I should stay with my partner.
Would you endorse that conclusion?
If not, would you therefore agree that we need more than just that one rule?
Suffering mildly by staying one a person is one thing—but what I had in mind while thinking of that example is that breaking up is painful, but over quickly—whereas staying on in a relationship that isn’t working is bad for both partners—not just the one leaving. - and lasts for a long time (probably decades if you keep at it).
The one that would be “happy if you just suffered quietly a little” can also be not as happy as they would be if the relationship ended and they found somebody that really wanted to be with them. oh, and it isn’t always just a little suffering involved for the wanting-to-leave partner. Plus the factor that perhaps the one wanting to leave may be wanting to make a third person happy…
Of course, if it’s just a small inconvenience to one person—then I wouldn’t advocate breaking up at all. Relationships are “about” compromise on the small things to gain over the long term.
Obviously it all depends on circumstance and we cannot make a single rule to fit all possible permutations...
It makes sense on its own but it contradicts what you said earlier about the cases cousin_it suggested.
It does seem to—which made me think about exactly which cases I’d consider one or the other. So here goes again… :)
In the example above—I am trying avoid causing hurt to the children—therefore if I hurt one person because it’s the only way to avoid hurting multiple people, it is ethically-difficult… but, in my head, ok in the end because the re is no other option available. If you had the opportunity to choose even less collateral damage (eg slamming on the brakes) you would do so.
In the case of intentionally hurting one woman in order to gain advantage for onself—this does not apply. Especially because you are intentionally hurting another person to help onseself—the sex is the eventual goal… but the hurt is chosen as a necessary step for that goal—there are no other means being considered.
In the case of breaking up with a person—you are intending that you and they not be with one another anymore—you are not hurting them with the intent to hurt them—therefore the “collateral damage” is unintentional. - Also the expectation is that you will both be better off apart (on average). Yes, there are rare cases where an unstable person will not recover… but on average I’d say that if you were trying to have a relationship with the kind of person that was suicidal—you might be better off not being with them… that is obviously an ethical dilemma that will never be covered by a cut-and-dried rule.… but I can safely say that in my head—if I were to leave somebody whom I suspected to be suicidal—I’d be leaving them, not with the intent that they choose to commit suicide—therefore the harm would be unintentional (also, I’d make sure to call somebody that could help them with their suicidal tendencies… but that’s by-the-by).
As to the case where we’re deliberately choosing to kill people that are located in a civilian location… I’d consider it ethically questionable, because you are deliberately choosing to kill people… not just to avoid killing other people (as in the schoolchildren case).
There is intent to kill—even if these particular people are not part of the main intent. I’d consider it less ethically questionable if they found a way to try to kill these targets without damage to the surrounding areas.
… in fact, in thinking more, I think a big differene is the actual intent itself. Are you trying to Gain by the hurt, or to Reduce a Bad Thing?
I think it’s more ok to hurt to reduce a worse Bad Thing, than it is to simply Gain something that you’d otherwise not have.
This really does seem unnecessarily complicated.
Let’s assume for the sake of discussion that more pain is bad, and less pain is good. (You already seem to be assuming this, which is fine, I just want to make it explicit.)
Most of these examples are cases of evaluating which available option results in less pain, and endorsing that option. This seems straightforward enough given that assumption.
The example of breaking up with someone is not clearly a case of that, which sounds like the reason you tie yourself in knots trying to account for it.
So, OK… let me approach that example from another direction. If I suffer mildly by staying with my partner, and my partner suffers massively by my leaving him, and the only rule we have is “more suffering is worse than less suffering,” then it follows that I should stay with my partner.
Would you endorse that conclusion?
If not, would you therefore agree that we need more than just that one rule?
We certainly need more than just one rule. :)
Less pain frequently seems better than more pain.
Suffering mildly by staying one a person is one thing—but what I had in mind while thinking of that example is that breaking up is painful, but over quickly—whereas staying on in a relationship that isn’t working is bad for both partners—not just the one leaving. - and lasts for a long time (probably decades if you keep at it).
The one that would be “happy if you just suffered quietly a little” can also be not as happy as they would be if the relationship ended and they found somebody that really wanted to be with them. oh, and it isn’t always just a little suffering involved for the wanting-to-leave partner. Plus the factor that perhaps the one wanting to leave may be wanting to make a third person happy…
Of course, if it’s just a small inconvenience to one person—then I wouldn’t advocate breaking up at all. Relationships are “about” compromise on the small things to gain over the long term.
Obviously it all depends on circumstance and we cannot make a single rule to fit all possible permutations...