I don’t know about the majority, but I can say for at least a few, when they say “I don’t see people in terms of race”, they’re being literal, not metaphoric. I was like this until my late teen years, when it changed, in a bad way—which I can detail if there’s interest. But the point is, until that moment I really couldn’t see race, at all. I evidently noticed people had different skin colors, hair types, and eye shapes, but this didn’t register with me as significant in any way, shape or form, concrete or abstract.
And one comment about the AMAB and AFAB acronyms. A study I read years ago showed that about 1 in 20,000 newborns are transgendered. This means that 99.995% of the time the gender assigned at birth is indeed the gender the person will have. Now, the usual, in contexts in which one has a 99.995% likelihood of making a correct guess, is to simply say “x is y”. Evidently, for the 0.005% of cases in which the that guess was incorrect, it makes sense to say they were “incorrectly AM/FAB”, but outside of these exceptional cases of misassignment, using these expressions gives the impression the assignation is incorrectly made way more often than it in fact is.
I don’t know about the majority, but I can say for at least a few, when they say “I don’t see people in terms of race”, they’re being literal, not metaphoric. I was like this until my late teen years, when it changed, in a bad way—which I can detail if there’s interest. But the point is, until that moment I really couldn’t see race, at all. I evidently noticed people had different skin colors, hair types, and eye shapes, but this didn’t register with me as significant in any way, shape or form, concrete or abstract.
I can totally relate to this description and experience. I think the term “not seeing race/being colorblind” is a bit confusing in a literal sense, even if not disingenously used, because it sounds like its literally talking about not noticing the traits when it’s often meant about not treating the traits as deep meaningful aspects of human being or having (insert stereotypes, associations, connotations) triggered by observing said traits, if used positively/non-pejoratively. Or if used negatively/pejoratively these days (when talking about “colorblindness” being covertly actually “racist”), it’s about denial of having said (insert stereotypes, associations, connotations) triggered by observing said traits, but pretending otherwise.
When I was young, I too noticed the physical variability of people but did not see the social categories that came bundled with it (I still remember as a kid literally describing people by skin tone or eye color, like “he’s darker than me in skin” or “her hair’s curlier than his” if asked, but not having learned the social stereotypes as in I would never have associated that curly-haired dark skinned people listen to one type of music that light-skinned, straight-haired ones don’t). I also never really connected culture with physical appearance/ancestry in a way that people who care a lot about cultural authenticity/appropriation today do (for instance, my priors were that anyone could speak any language, learn any skill, eat any food etc. so I never picked up why people acted surprised for instance when say a black person spoke with a Scottish accent, or say a white person ate Chinese food more often than his Asian neighbor, until later in my life).
This also changed for me (in my early to mid teens, rather than late teens as you mentioned for your case). I would indeed be interested in your mention of this sort of thing having “changed in a bad way”. I also don’t recall the exact details, but the “loss of colorblindness/lack of racial consciousness” for me seemed to grow out of being gradually more and more aware and socially conscious about what others around me thought and judged/stereotyped about others. I learned to pick up said stereotypes, perhaps becoming more socially savvy and accultured to normal adult life (I also didn’t like that and in hindsight would have liked the, perhaps, naively blissful “unaware of racial stereotypes” phase, but I realize it wouldn’t last).
I suppose that’s why people disdain teaching”colorblindness”… trying to make naivity about social categories extend for as long as possible isn’t going to last if these social categories are treated as super significant all around you, better to learn them quickly and counter the ways these social categories impact people negatively (still, I feel some part of me longs for the idealized “not noticing race as significant” phase, and hope that even if “colorblindess” is negative in that solving race-related problems involve noticing social categories and putting super strong emphasis on them, I hope that’s instrumental and in some ways, is meant to lead to a world where we do get into a closer-to “colorblind” end state in the previously thought of as positive way, rather than the “fake” colorblindness of not noticing racial problems).
I would indeed be interested in your mention of this sort of thing having “changed in a bad way”.
Well, in my case it came due to robbery. Until my late teens / early adulthood I was robbed four times, which wasn’t uncommon in the region of Brazil I lived at the time (crime rates have diminished a lot in the intervening decades). From those, three were by black thieves, blacks being a very discriminated-against group here, even if not as much as in the US. The third time has caused in me what I suppose I could describe as a “micro-PTSD”, because from that day my System 1 began making me acutely aware, in a fight-or-flight manner, of the presence of unknown black people around me, something that didn’t happen before.
This is extremely annoying, to say the least. No matter how much I want to turn off this trigger, it remains “there”, unconsciously activating whenever I’m distracted from actively suppressing it at the System 2 level. That said, over time I’ve managed to learn to suppress it very quickly, but I always worry on occasion it may be not be quick enough, that the person at whom it triggered will notice that split-second spark of irrational fear in my eyes before I can consciously force it off.
On the not quite bright side, gaining this trigger made me understand how racial biases develop and perpetuate. But I still would have very much preferred to never have gained it to begin with.
This seems pretty tough because humans easily form associations with negative events, relative to positive events (for instance, refusal to visit a place ever again that they were robbed in, or eat a food that made them terribly sick, even if later on they intellectually realize it was a chance thing).
I wonder if more positive encounters would help gradually change the bias, also for your own well-being (for example, having experiences where you were helped by, or have friendly relations with people who happen to be black, and overall being further exposed to that variability in all traits good and bad existing across humanity regardless of race).
But then again, not having been through the same situation (and not knowing if I would develop the same response, or if most people in general would, of having feelings of a certain way towards a group because of a given number of negative encounters), I’ll refrain from too much theoretical postulating.
I wonder if more positive encounters would help gradually change the bias, also for your own well-being (...)
Ah! I have plenty of extremely positive experiences with black people, from black friends, to coworkers, to acquaintances, to (awesome!) teachers, to college friends. For me, people are all individuals, no exception, and I cannot think in terms of groups or collectivities even if I tried forcing myself to do so. As such, I have always been extremely careful not to allow this irrational trigger to affect anything real, and this is why I described this quirk as “extremely annoying”. It’d be an easy but deeply flawed pseudo-solution to keep the problem at bay by distancing myself from situations that trigger it, but I refuse to do that.
If it helps to visualize it, imagine walking around and suddenly noticing a tiger looking at you growling at their signature 18Hz, or a snake rising their head. Your body would react in a split instant, much faster than your conscious mind registers it, by pumping you with adrenaline in order to increase to the max your chances of survival. That, more or less, is what happens, so the most I can do, and this I make myself do all the time, is to forcefully shut the adrenaline pump down once it opens, and carry on as if it hadn’t opened up. The mechanism by which it opens, though, that one is beyond my conscious control, and while familiarity reduces its triggering, it unfortunately doesn’t fully eliminate it.
Which is why I linked it to PTSD. When a person suffers a trauma and develops PTSD, their brain physically rewires as a defense mechanism. Barring some very experimental psychotropic treatments being currently researched, this physical rewiring cannot be reversed. It can at most be eased, but fully reversed, not yet, no.
The fraction of LW readers who are non-cisgender is much more than 1⁄20,000. Respondents to the 2020 SSC survey were 94.5% cisgender, 2.5% transgender, 3% other.
I’m involved in subcultures with even higher proportion of transgendered people, being relatively fluid myself, so it’s always nice to find other contexts in which transgendered individuals have a higher representativeness than they have in the general population.
The furry fandom and the otherkin community here in Brazil.
It’s okay if you don’t want to answer.
Nah, I’m an open book. I make a point of not keeping secrets unless absolutely necessary. There’s no risk in doxing if you yourself provide the doxa beforehand. ;-)
A study I read years ago showed that about 1 in 20,000 newborns are transgendered.
I’m not sure what it means for a newborn to be transgendered. Transgender in the discourse that exists at the moment is about self-identification and a newborn likely self-identifies as neither male nor female because those are concepts that are learned later.
Maybe you read about a number for intersex children and confuse that with transgender? In the US roughly 1⁄300 identify as transgender and in the rationality community maybe 1⁄30.
This is a sensistive topic where if you join a discussion you shouldn’t bent definitions of words but be careful about getting things right.
I’m not sure what it means for a newborn to be transgendered.
Over the last two to three decades many clinical studies have been developed scanning the brains of transgendered individuals. Brain regions have been identified that mark brains as clearly masculine, feminine, or somewhere in between, and transgendered individuals’ brains show the properties of the brains typical of the other sex, meaning trans women have structurally female brains in male bodies, and trans men have structurally male brain in female bodies. You can find a fairly comprehensive list of papers on this at the Causes of Transexuality Wikipedia article. Additionally, gender dysphoria is characterized, as I see it, by a clear mismatch between body shape and the homunculus, which further points to transgenderism being a neurological fact.
The 1:20,000 factor comes from the prevalence of gender dysphoria in adults, that is, from this brain/body mismatch. This paper refers to different studies and their ranges, some finding a prevalence as low as 1:100,000, others one as high as 1:10,000:
Kenneth J. Zucker & Anne A. Lawrence (2009) Epidemiology of Gender Identity Disorder: Recommendations for the Standards of Care of the World Professional Association for Transgender Health, International Journal of Transgenderism, 11:1, 8-18, DOI: 10.1080/15532730902799946
In the US roughly 1⁄300 identify as transgender and in the rationality community maybe 1⁄30.
I’m not aware of these numbers, but it wouldn’t surprise me if there’s a conceptual confusion between being transgender in the strict, biological brain vs. body sense, and being gender non-conformant. In my case, I’m behaviorally gender non-conformant, having a very high number of stereotypically female traits (I’ve been described by people as “very androgynous”, with one saying I was “the most androgynous person” they’ve ever met), but in terms of my brain-body matching I’m clearly cis male, experiencing no gender dysphoria of any sort. Therefore, I don’t consider myself transgendered, although, yes, I can see how there might be a use case in making the word encompass both strict biological transgenderism and gender non-conformance.
I want to acknowledge that this is an interesting subject and that your comment is well-written. You are obviously well-researched in this field. You approach the subject openmindedly while also drawing from personal experience.
but outside of these exceptional cases of misassignment, using these expressions gives the impression the assignation is incorrectly made way more often than it in fact is.
I see what you mean, but perhaps to be charitable (if not pedantic), I feel like the term “assigned” doesn’t necessarily tell you about accuracy, reliability (or perhaps goodness) of an assignment. For example, if I hear someone say “the policy-maker assigned a high economic value to X” or “the scientist assigned a high probability to the chance of a drought”, I wouldn’t think absent more info, that it was likely correct or incorrect, just that someone was reporting someone else’s judgement.
I don’t know about the majority, but I can say for at least a few, when they say “I don’t see people in terms of race”, they’re being literal, not metaphoric. I was like this until my late teen years, when it changed, in a bad way—which I can detail if there’s interest. But the point is, until that moment I really couldn’t see race, at all. I evidently noticed people had different skin colors, hair types, and eye shapes, but this didn’t register with me as significant in any way, shape or form, concrete or abstract.
And one comment about the AMAB and AFAB acronyms. A study I read years ago showed that about 1 in 20,000 newborns are transgendered. This means that 99.995% of the time the gender assigned at birth is indeed the gender the person will have. Now, the usual, in contexts in which one has a 99.995% likelihood of making a correct guess, is to simply say “x is y”. Evidently, for the 0.005% of cases in which the that guess was incorrect, it makes sense to say they were “incorrectly AM/FAB”, but outside of these exceptional cases of misassignment, using these expressions gives the impression the assignation is incorrectly made way more often than it in fact is.
I can totally relate to this description and experience. I think the term “not seeing race/being colorblind” is a bit confusing in a literal sense, even if not disingenously used, because it sounds like its literally talking about not noticing the traits when it’s often meant about not treating the traits as deep meaningful aspects of human being or having (insert stereotypes, associations, connotations) triggered by observing said traits, if used positively/non-pejoratively. Or if used negatively/pejoratively these days (when talking about “colorblindness” being covertly actually “racist”), it’s about denial of having said (insert stereotypes, associations, connotations) triggered by observing said traits, but pretending otherwise.
When I was young, I too noticed the physical variability of people but did not see the social categories that came bundled with it (I still remember as a kid literally describing people by skin tone or eye color, like “he’s darker than me in skin” or “her hair’s curlier than his” if asked, but not having learned the social stereotypes as in I would never have associated that curly-haired dark skinned people listen to one type of music that light-skinned, straight-haired ones don’t). I also never really connected culture with physical appearance/ancestry in a way that people who care a lot about cultural authenticity/appropriation today do (for instance, my priors were that anyone could speak any language, learn any skill, eat any food etc. so I never picked up why people acted surprised for instance when say a black person spoke with a Scottish accent, or say a white person ate Chinese food more often than his Asian neighbor, until later in my life).
This also changed for me (in my early to mid teens, rather than late teens as you mentioned for your case). I would indeed be interested in your mention of this sort of thing having “changed in a bad way”. I also don’t recall the exact details, but the “loss of colorblindness/lack of racial consciousness” for me seemed to grow out of being gradually more and more aware and socially conscious about what others around me thought and judged/stereotyped about others. I learned to pick up said stereotypes, perhaps becoming more socially savvy and accultured to normal adult life (I also didn’t like that and in hindsight would have liked the, perhaps, naively blissful “unaware of racial stereotypes” phase, but I realize it wouldn’t last).
I suppose that’s why people disdain teaching”colorblindness”… trying to make naivity about social categories extend for as long as possible isn’t going to last if these social categories are treated as super significant all around you, better to learn them quickly and counter the ways these social categories impact people negatively (still, I feel some part of me longs for the idealized “not noticing race as significant” phase, and hope that even if “colorblindess” is negative in that solving race-related problems involve noticing social categories and putting super strong emphasis on them, I hope that’s instrumental and in some ways, is meant to lead to a world where we do get into a closer-to “colorblind” end state in the previously thought of as positive way, rather than the “fake” colorblindness of not noticing racial problems).
Well, in my case it came due to robbery. Until my late teens / early adulthood I was robbed four times, which wasn’t uncommon in the region of Brazil I lived at the time (crime rates have diminished a lot in the intervening decades). From those, three were by black thieves, blacks being a very discriminated-against group here, even if not as much as in the US. The third time has caused in me what I suppose I could describe as a “micro-PTSD”, because from that day my System 1 began making me acutely aware, in a fight-or-flight manner, of the presence of unknown black people around me, something that didn’t happen before.
This is extremely annoying, to say the least. No matter how much I want to turn off this trigger, it remains “there”, unconsciously activating whenever I’m distracted from actively suppressing it at the System 2 level. That said, over time I’ve managed to learn to suppress it very quickly, but I always worry on occasion it may be not be quick enough, that the person at whom it triggered will notice that split-second spark of irrational fear in my eyes before I can consciously force it off.
On the not quite bright side, gaining this trigger made me understand how racial biases develop and perpetuate. But I still would have very much preferred to never have gained it to begin with.
Meta: Someone strong downvoted alexgieg’s comment. I’m curious why. I read his comment as a costly contribution of hard observational data.
This seems pretty tough because humans easily form associations with negative events, relative to positive events (for instance, refusal to visit a place ever again that they were robbed in, or eat a food that made them terribly sick, even if later on they intellectually realize it was a chance thing).
I wonder if more positive encounters would help gradually change the bias, also for your own well-being (for example, having experiences where you were helped by, or have friendly relations with people who happen to be black, and overall being further exposed to that variability in all traits good and bad existing across humanity regardless of race).
But then again, not having been through the same situation (and not knowing if I would develop the same response, or if most people in general would, of having feelings of a certain way towards a group because of a given number of negative encounters), I’ll refrain from too much theoretical postulating.
Ah! I have plenty of extremely positive experiences with black people, from black friends, to coworkers, to acquaintances, to (awesome!) teachers, to college friends. For me, people are all individuals, no exception, and I cannot think in terms of groups or collectivities even if I tried forcing myself to do so. As such, I have always been extremely careful not to allow this irrational trigger to affect anything real, and this is why I described this quirk as “extremely annoying”. It’d be an easy but deeply flawed pseudo-solution to keep the problem at bay by distancing myself from situations that trigger it, but I refuse to do that.
If it helps to visualize it, imagine walking around and suddenly noticing a tiger looking at you growling at their signature 18Hz, or a snake rising their head. Your body would react in a split instant, much faster than your conscious mind registers it, by pumping you with adrenaline in order to increase to the max your chances of survival. That, more or less, is what happens, so the most I can do, and this I make myself do all the time, is to forcefully shut the adrenaline pump down once it opens, and carry on as if it hadn’t opened up. The mechanism by which it opens, though, that one is beyond my conscious control, and while familiarity reduces its triggering, it unfortunately doesn’t fully eliminate it.
Which is why I linked it to PTSD. When a person suffers a trauma and develops PTSD, their brain physically rewires as a defense mechanism. Barring some very experimental psychotropic treatments being currently researched, this physical rewiring cannot be reversed. It can at most be eased, but fully reversed, not yet, no.
The fraction of LW readers who are non-cisgender is much more than 1⁄20,000. Respondents to the 2020 SSC survey were 94.5% cisgender, 2.5% transgender, 3% other.
Thanks, that’s very nice to know!
I’m involved in subcultures with even higher proportion of transgendered people, being relatively fluid myself, so it’s always nice to find other contexts in which transgendered individuals have a higher representativeness than they have in the general population.
Which subcultures are these? It’s okay if you don’t want to answer.
The furry fandom and the otherkin community here in Brazil.
Nah, I’m an open book. I make a point of not keeping secrets unless absolutely necessary. There’s no risk in doxing if you yourself provide the doxa beforehand. ;-)
I’m not sure what it means for a newborn to be transgendered. Transgender in the discourse that exists at the moment is about self-identification and a newborn likely self-identifies as neither male nor female because those are concepts that are learned later.
Maybe you read about a number for intersex children and confuse that with transgender? In the US roughly 1⁄300 identify as transgender and in the rationality community maybe 1⁄30.
This is a sensistive topic where if you join a discussion you shouldn’t bent definitions of words but be careful about getting things right.
Over the last two to three decades many clinical studies have been developed scanning the brains of transgendered individuals. Brain regions have been identified that mark brains as clearly masculine, feminine, or somewhere in between, and transgendered individuals’ brains show the properties of the brains typical of the other sex, meaning trans women have structurally female brains in male bodies, and trans men have structurally male brain in female bodies. You can find a fairly comprehensive list of papers on this at the Causes of Transexuality Wikipedia article. Additionally, gender dysphoria is characterized, as I see it, by a clear mismatch between body shape and the homunculus, which further points to transgenderism being a neurological fact.
The 1:20,000 factor comes from the prevalence of gender dysphoria in adults, that is, from this brain/body mismatch. This paper refers to different studies and their ranges, some finding a prevalence as low as 1:100,000, others one as high as 1:10,000:
Kenneth J. Zucker & Anne A. Lawrence (2009) Epidemiology of Gender Identity Disorder: Recommendations for the Standards of Care of the World Professional Association for Transgender Health, International Journal of Transgenderism, 11:1, 8-18, DOI: 10.1080/15532730902799946
I’m not aware of these numbers, but it wouldn’t surprise me if there’s a conceptual confusion between being transgender in the strict, biological brain vs. body sense, and being gender non-conformant. In my case, I’m behaviorally gender non-conformant, having a very high number of stereotypically female traits (I’ve been described by people as “very androgynous”, with one saying I was “the most androgynous person” they’ve ever met), but in terms of my brain-body matching I’m clearly cis male, experiencing no gender dysphoria of any sort. Therefore, I don’t consider myself transgendered, although, yes, I can see how there might be a use case in making the word encompass both strict biological transgenderism and gender non-conformance.
I want to acknowledge that this is an interesting subject and that your comment is well-written. You are obviously well-researched in this field. You approach the subject openmindedly while also drawing from personal experience.
I see what you mean, but perhaps to be charitable (if not pedantic), I feel like the term “assigned” doesn’t necessarily tell you about accuracy, reliability (or perhaps goodness) of an assignment. For example, if I hear someone say “the policy-maker assigned a high economic value to X” or “the scientist assigned a high probability to the chance of a drought”, I wouldn’t think absent more info, that it was likely correct or incorrect, just that someone was reporting someone else’s judgement.