Before I say anything I would like to mention that this is my first post on LW, and being only part way through the sequences I am hesitant to comment yet, but I am curious about your type of position.
What I find peculiar about your position is the fact that Yudkowsky did not, as he presented here, engage the argument. The other person did, asserting “only God can make a soul”, implying that Yudkowsky’s profession is impossible or nonsensical. Vocalizing any type of assertion, in my opinion, should be viewed as a two-way street, letting potential criticism come. In this particular example the assertion was of a subject that the man knew would be of large interest to Yudkowsky, certainly disproportionately more than say whether or not the punch being served had mango juice in it.
I’d like to know what you expect Yudkowsky should have done given the situation. Do you expect him not to give his own opinion, given the other person’s challenge? Or was it instead something in particular about the way Yudkowsky did it? Isn’t arguing inevitable and all we can do is try to build better dialogue quality? (That has been my conclusion for the last few years). Either way, I don’t see the hubris you seem to. My usual complaints of discussions is that they are not well educated enough and people tend to say things that are too vague to be useful, or outright unsupported. However I rarely see a discussion and think “Well the root problem here is that they are too arrogant”, so I’d like to know what your reasoning is.
It may be relevant that in real life I am known by some as being “aggressive” and “argumentative”. Though you probably could have inferred that based on my position but I’d like to keep everything about my position as transparent as possible.
If I were the host I would not like it if one of my guests tried to end a conversation with “We’ll have to agree to disagree” and the other guest continued with “No, we can’t, actually. There’s a theorem of rationality called Aumann’s Agreement Theorem which shows that no two rationalists can agree to disagree.” In my book this is obnoxious behavior.
Having fun at someone else’s expense is one thing, but holding it up in an early core sequences post as a good thing to do is another. Given that we direct new Less Wrong readers to the core sequence posts, I think they indicate what the spirit of the community is about. And I don’t like seeing the community branded as being about how to show off or how to embarrass people who aren’t as rational as you.
What gave me an icky feeling about this conversation is that Eliezer didn’t seem to really be aiming to bring the man round to what he saw as a more accurate viewpoint. If you’ve read Eliezer being persuasive, you’ll know that this was not it. He seemed more interested in proving that the man’s statement was wrong. It’s a good thing to learn to lose graciously when they’re wrong, and learn from the experience. But that’s not something you can force someone to learn from the outside. I don’t think the other man walked away from this experience improved, and I don’t think that was Eliezer’s goal.
I, like you, love a good argument with someone who also enjoys it. But to continue arguing with someone who’s not enjoying it feels sadistic to me.
If I were in this conversation, I would try to frame it as a mutual exploration rather than a mission to discover which of us was wrong. At the point where the other tried to shut down the conversation, I might say, “Wait, I think we were getting to something interesting, and I want to understand what you meant when you said...” Then proceed to poke holes, but in a curious rather than professorial way.
If I were the host I would not like it if one of my guests tried to end a conversation with “We’ll have to agree to disagree” and the other guest continued with “No, we can’t, actually. There’s a theorem of rationality called Aumann’s Agreement Theorem which shows that no two rationalists can agree to disagree.” In my book this is obnoxious behavior.
I’d find it especially obnoxious because Aumann’s agreement theorem looks to me like one of those theorems that just doesn’t do what people want it to do, and so ends up as a rhetorical cudgel rather than a relevant argument with practical import.
Agreed. If this was Judo, it wasn’t a clean point. EY’s opponent simply didn’t know that the move used on him was against the sport’s rules, and failed to cry foul.
Storytelling-wise, EY getting away with that felt like a surprising ending, like a minor villain not getting his comeuppance.
Interesting. Do we have any good information on the attributes of discussions or debates that are the most likely to educate the other person when they disagree? In hindsight this would be a large shortcoming of mine, having debated for years now but never invested much in trying to optimize my approach with people.
Something I’ve noticed: when someone takes the “conquer the debate” adversarial approach, a typical-minded audience appears more likely to be interested and side with the “winner” than if the person takes a much more reserved and cooperative approach despite having just as supported arguments. Maybe the first works well for typical audiences and the second for above-typical ones? Or maybe it doesn’t matter if we can foster the second in “typical” minds. Given my uncertainty it seems highly unlikely that my approach with people is optimal.
Do you have any tips for someone interested in making a mental habit out of cooperative discussion as opposed to being adversarial? I find it very difficult, I’m an aggressive and vigorous person. Maybe if I could see a video of someone using the better approach so I can try to emulate them.
Interesting. Do we have any good information on the attributes of discussions or debates that are the most likely to educate the other person when they disagree?
Something I’ve noticed: when someone takes the “conquer the debate” adversarial approach, a typical-minded audience appears more likely to be interested and side with the “winner” than if the person takes a much more reserved and cooperative approach despite having just as supported arguments. Maybe the first works well for typical audiences and the second for above-typical ones?
I hope you’ve noticed you changed the subject here. In the first paragraph you’re trying to persuade the person with whom you are conversing; in the second paragraph you’re trying to convince an audience. They might well require entirely different methods.
You’re right, I see now that the effect on audiences does not relate much to the one-on-one, so I should have kept a clear distinction. Thank you for pointing this out.
I believe this obvious mistake shows that I shouldn’t comment on the sequences as I work my way through them, but rather it is better if I only start commenting after I have become familiar with them all. I am not ready yet to make comments that are relevant and coherent, and the very last thing I want to do is pollute the comment section. I am so glad about the opportunity for growth this site has, thanks very much to all.
An adversarial approach may impress spectators. In Eliezer’s example, it impressed at least one. But I think it’s more likely to alienate the person you’re actually conversing with.
I don’t have objective research on this. I’m working from personal experience and social work training. In social work you assume people are pretty irrational and coax them round to seeing what you think are better approaches in a way that doesn’t embarrass them.
In social work we’d call it “collaborative empricism” or Socratic questioning. Here’s video example of a therapist not shouting “Of course you’re not being punished by God!” It’s more touchy-feely than an argument, but the elements (taking the outside view, encouraging him to lay out the evidence on the situation) are there.
Shortly after my stroke, my mom (who was in many ways more traumatized by it than I was) mentioned that she was trying to figure out what it was that she’d done wrong such that God had punished her by my having a stroke. As you might imagine, I contemplated a number of different competing responses to this, but what I finally said was (something along the lines of) “Look, I understand why you want to build a narrative out of this that involves some responsible agent making decisions that are influenced by your choices, and I recognize that we’re all in a difficult emotional place right now and you do what you have to do, but let me offer you an alternative narrative: maybe I had a survivable stroke at 40 so I’d start controlling my blood pressure so I didn’t have a fatal one at 45. Isn’t that a better story to tell yourself?”
Hmm! I found that actually quite helpful. The therapist didn’t even voice any apparent disagreement, he coaxed the man into making his reasoning explicit. This would greatly reduce the percent of the argument spent in an adversarial state. I noticed that it also put the emphasis of the discussion on the epistemology of the subject which seems the best way for them to learn why they are wrong, as opposed to a more example-specific “You’re wrong because X”.
Thank you for that link. Would it be useful for me to use other videos involving a therapist who disagrees with a delusional patient? It seems like the ideal type of behaviour to try and emulate. This is going to take me lots of practice but I’m eager to get it.
Would it be useful for me to use other videos involving a therapist who disagrees with a delusional patient?
I’m not sure. The kind of irrational beliefs you’re likely to talk about with others are some kind of misconception or cached belief, rather than an out-and-out delusion like “people are following me everywhere”, which probably stems from a chemical imbalance and can’t really be talked away.
You could try reading up on CBT, but the literature is about doing therapy, which is a pretty different animal from normal conversations. Active listening might be a more useful skill to start with. People are less defensive if they feel you’re really trying to understand their point of view.
Before I say anything I would like to mention that this is my first post on LW, and being only part way through the sequences I am hesitant to comment yet, but I am curious about your type of position.
What I find peculiar about your position is the fact that Yudkowsky did not, as he presented here, engage the argument. The other person did, asserting “only God can make a soul”, implying that Yudkowsky’s profession is impossible or nonsensical. Vocalizing any type of assertion, in my opinion, should be viewed as a two-way street, letting potential criticism come. In this particular example the assertion was of a subject that the man knew would be of large interest to Yudkowsky, certainly disproportionately more than say whether or not the punch being served had mango juice in it.
I’d like to know what you expect Yudkowsky should have done given the situation. Do you expect him not to give his own opinion, given the other person’s challenge? Or was it instead something in particular about the way Yudkowsky did it? Isn’t arguing inevitable and all we can do is try to build better dialogue quality? (That has been my conclusion for the last few years). Either way, I don’t see the hubris you seem to. My usual complaints of discussions is that they are not well educated enough and people tend to say things that are too vague to be useful, or outright unsupported. However I rarely see a discussion and think “Well the root problem here is that they are too arrogant”, so I’d like to know what your reasoning is.
It may be relevant that in real life I am known by some as being “aggressive” and “argumentative”. Though you probably could have inferred that based on my position but I’d like to keep everything about my position as transparent as possible.
Thank you for your time.
If I were the host I would not like it if one of my guests tried to end a conversation with “We’ll have to agree to disagree” and the other guest continued with “No, we can’t, actually. There’s a theorem of rationality called Aumann’s Agreement Theorem which shows that no two rationalists can agree to disagree.” In my book this is obnoxious behavior.
Having fun at someone else’s expense is one thing, but holding it up in an early core sequences post as a good thing to do is another. Given that we direct new Less Wrong readers to the core sequence posts, I think they indicate what the spirit of the community is about. And I don’t like seeing the community branded as being about how to show off or how to embarrass people who aren’t as rational as you.
What gave me an icky feeling about this conversation is that Eliezer didn’t seem to really be aiming to bring the man round to what he saw as a more accurate viewpoint. If you’ve read Eliezer being persuasive, you’ll know that this was not it. He seemed more interested in proving that the man’s statement was wrong. It’s a good thing to learn to lose graciously when they’re wrong, and learn from the experience. But that’s not something you can force someone to learn from the outside. I don’t think the other man walked away from this experience improved, and I don’t think that was Eliezer’s goal.
I, like you, love a good argument with someone who also enjoys it. But to continue arguing with someone who’s not enjoying it feels sadistic to me.
If I were in this conversation, I would try to frame it as a mutual exploration rather than a mission to discover which of us was wrong. At the point where the other tried to shut down the conversation, I might say, “Wait, I think we were getting to something interesting, and I want to understand what you meant when you said...” Then proceed to poke holes, but in a curious rather than professorial way.
I’d find it especially obnoxious because Aumann’s agreement theorem looks to me like one of those theorems that just doesn’t do what people want it to do, and so ends up as a rhetorical cudgel rather than a relevant argument with practical import.
Agreed. If this was Judo, it wasn’t a clean point. EY’s opponent simply didn’t know that the move used on him was against the sport’s rules, and failed to cry foul.
Storytelling-wise, EY getting away with that felt like a surprising ending, like a minor villain not getting his comeuppance.
Interesting. Do we have any good information on the attributes of discussions or debates that are the most likely to educate the other person when they disagree? In hindsight this would be a large shortcoming of mine, having debated for years now but never invested much in trying to optimize my approach with people.
Something I’ve noticed: when someone takes the “conquer the debate” adversarial approach, a typical-minded audience appears more likely to be interested and side with the “winner” than if the person takes a much more reserved and cooperative approach despite having just as supported arguments. Maybe the first works well for typical audiences and the second for above-typical ones? Or maybe it doesn’t matter if we can foster the second in “typical” minds. Given my uncertainty it seems highly unlikely that my approach with people is optimal.
Do you have any tips for someone interested in making a mental habit out of cooperative discussion as opposed to being adversarial? I find it very difficult, I’m an aggressive and vigorous person. Maybe if I could see a video of someone using the better approach so I can try to emulate them.
I hope you’ve noticed you changed the subject here. In the first paragraph you’re trying to persuade the person with whom you are conversing; in the second paragraph you’re trying to convince an audience. They might well require entirely different methods.
You’re right, I see now that the effect on audiences does not relate much to the one-on-one, so I should have kept a clear distinction. Thank you for pointing this out.
I believe this obvious mistake shows that I shouldn’t comment on the sequences as I work my way through them, but rather it is better if I only start commenting after I have become familiar with them all. I am not ready yet to make comments that are relevant and coherent, and the very last thing I want to do is pollute the comment section. I am so glad about the opportunity for growth this site has, thanks very much to all.
Meh. Comments on old sequence posts don’t add much noise, as long as the comment threads don’t explode.
An adversarial approach may impress spectators. In Eliezer’s example, it impressed at least one. But I think it’s more likely to alienate the person you’re actually conversing with.
I don’t have objective research on this. I’m working from personal experience and social work training. In social work you assume people are pretty irrational and coax them round to seeing what you think are better approaches in a way that doesn’t embarrass them.
In social work we’d call it “collaborative empricism” or Socratic questioning. Here’s video example of a therapist not shouting “Of course you’re not being punished by God!” It’s more touchy-feely than an argument, but the elements (taking the outside view, encouraging him to lay out the evidence on the situation) are there.
Shortly after my stroke, my mom (who was in many ways more traumatized by it than I was) mentioned that she was trying to figure out what it was that she’d done wrong such that God had punished her by my having a stroke. As you might imagine, I contemplated a number of different competing responses to this, but what I finally said was (something along the lines of) “Look, I understand why you want to build a narrative out of this that involves some responsible agent making decisions that are influenced by your choices, and I recognize that we’re all in a difficult emotional place right now and you do what you have to do, but let me offer you an alternative narrative: maybe I had a survivable stroke at 40 so I’d start controlling my blood pressure so I didn’t have a fatal one at 45. Isn’t that a better story to tell yourself?”
I was pretty proud of that interaction.
Nice work!
That’s the same idea as narrative therapy: drawing a new storyline with the same data points.
Hmm! I found that actually quite helpful. The therapist didn’t even voice any apparent disagreement, he coaxed the man into making his reasoning explicit. This would greatly reduce the percent of the argument spent in an adversarial state. I noticed that it also put the emphasis of the discussion on the epistemology of the subject which seems the best way for them to learn why they are wrong, as opposed to a more example-specific “You’re wrong because X”.
Thank you for that link. Would it be useful for me to use other videos involving a therapist who disagrees with a delusional patient? It seems like the ideal type of behaviour to try and emulate. This is going to take me lots of practice but I’m eager to get it.
Thank you for your help and advice!
I’m not sure. The kind of irrational beliefs you’re likely to talk about with others are some kind of misconception or cached belief, rather than an out-and-out delusion like “people are following me everywhere”, which probably stems from a chemical imbalance and can’t really be talked away.
You could try reading up on CBT, but the literature is about doing therapy, which is a pretty different animal from normal conversations. Active listening might be a more useful skill to start with. People are less defensive if they feel you’re really trying to understand their point of view.