I have 12 500 or so Karma. That gives me around 50 000 downvotes. That’s enough to zero out tens if not hundreds of contributors, especially if I concentrated on newbies. I could literally zero them out—keep them at zero, whatever they posted (and prevent them from posting top level comments), and either break them or the Karma system. Then once they’d left, I could reverse all my downvotes, and apply them to someone else.
If I was that cruel, and willing to ignore people’s opinions, then shunning would have no effect on me, nor would it reduce my power to cause destruction. At some point, something other that social means would be needed to stop me.
Exactly. “At some point.” We were a good ways away from the hypothetical you described. Social response should be commensurate with the social problem.
The example given is some guy who lost like 40 points? Let’s say that was the scale of the issue for a dozen people. This is a trivial problem for any individual, save for their propensity to curl up in a fetal position when someone on the internet expresses through those 40 points that he thinks their posts aren’t up to snuff.
I think I’ve lost more karma responding to this nonsense, and spent much time responding as well, because I find the response a little out of proportion, a little unfair, and worst of all, an empowering of the “you hurt my feelings, shut up” principle.
The social problem he was responding to was a perceived worsening of the signal to noise ratio, and a sizable chunk of the list seemed to share that opinion, and share that karma feedback was an appropriate response for the desired end state of shutting some people up, though I think that individual karma bombing has limited support.
I believe the solution I had suggested was for the moderators to contact the karma bomber and tell him “hey, you’re causing a problem, can you knock it off?”
That might have ended it without further escalation, and we could have all go on our merry way.
I don’t know the details of the discussion between Kaj and Eugine. Maybe that was it.
Solution if he won’t knock it off?
I’m torn. Which is the bigger problem—people taking action to protect their tender ears from the “noise” of posts they don’t like, or people taking action to protect their tender feelings from being hurt when someone expresses disapproval? Both are quite disruptive and tiresome, IMO.
First, there should be pretty easy technical countermeasures that would limit the power of any karma bombing campaign. Limiting all votes to your karma limit would be a nice start, particularly compelling to the signal to noise enthusiasts.
Second, often these “I’ve been karma bombed” threads provoke a karma telethon, where the target gets karma back and “validation” from interested parties. User affirmed, gets karma back, and widespread condemnation of karma bombing educates users on the problem of karma bombing and the general disapproval of it. Probably a necessary price to pay periodically.
Third, if the list wants to make an explicit policy against karma bombing, fine, let them do it, but applying it retroactively is bad form, IMO. The policy could be made after a thread inviting opinions on the policy, where people could discuss the general issue of policy somewhat divorced from their interest in a particular instance. This is a price I’d hope we could have avoided.
Fourth—I think there is widespread disapproval of karma bombing, even from the signal to noise purifiers. If the behavior continues in the face of explicit policy, then you can kick him off while mitigating any backlash and mollifying people with more concern for due process.
You make some valid points. And possibly I’d have done things differently, were I a moderator. Possibly.
But this kind of phrasing isn’t helpful:
people taking action to protect their tender ears from the “noise” of posts they don’t like, or people taking action to protect their tender feelings from being hurt when someone expresses disapproval?
Either the overall Karma system does its job (by using feelings, or reputation, or whatever), or it doesn’t. It doesn’t, no one would care. Clearly, they do care, so it is doing some of its job. Yay!
Eugine exploited a technical and social loophole, and threatened to destroy the whole system. Hyperbole? Do you really want to see competitive karma bombing, rushing to nuke your opponent’s score before they can do it to you? Reducing this level of misbehaviour to “feelings were hurt” is entirely misleading. Eugine cheated (exploited what was self evidently a difficult to close loophole), people got angry at being cheated (a useful evolutionary response) and the cheating could have irreparably damaged the website.
Then again, I think a lot of other people’s phrasing isn’t helpful. I think many of their ideas are positively harmful. But in any group, I don’t always expect to get my way.
It’s funny that all the people bemoaning his karma bombing of others where he perceives their irrationality, have little compunction about karma bombing my posts here so that I have to spend karma to not be rude and leave people hanging who took the time and effort to respond to me.
I’ve made arguments all the way through here. Anyone here saying I’m simply irrational? Not making any points? Can’t put an argument together?
Not that I’ve seen. It’s all tone. It’s all about hurt feelings. It’s all about having different values. If I were karma voting on those terms, I’d get carpal tunnel syndrome in a week. Click click click click click.
Look upthread at my −6, followed by your 100% +9. So, in your estimate, is that an accurate evaluation of our comparative rationality in those two posts? I was abysmally irrational, and you’re pristinely rational and insightful?
Looking at the pattern of votes, I think it’s unlikely that even the majority of my downvotes came from people who actually read each of my posts. A lot of people are just signaling disapproval. Like Eugine was doing.
Eugine is at least downvoting people on his perception of their rationality quotient.
Who’s really cheating here?
But is there anyone sharpening the tines of their pitchforks for these new cheaters? Strange how the pitchforks magically align to ideological north, instead of cheating north.
Reducing this level of misbehaviour to “feelings were hurt” is entirely misleading.
Hurt feelings are the crux of the matter. The “cheating” business is a minor transgression serving as rationalization for the picthforks, and as we’ve seen, a rationalization hardly consistently applied.
Turn all of Eugine’s downvotes to upvotes. Still “cheating”. Should provoke the same outrage, if the outrage was really about cheating. Do you maintain upvotes would have provoked the same outrage?
I think, people would have disapproved a little, but there would have nowhere near the level of stink about it, and he would not have been banned.
Hyperbole?
Yep. He was a minor annoyance that people blew up into major drama that was much more destructive.
Meanwhile, he was also a poster with 9000 karma. Seems like he was producing a good deal of value for some people. Not anymore.
As to what I’d really want—to be God Emperor, of course, but the Universe shows no sign of obliging any time soon. So I’m putting those plans on hold for the near future, and likewise don’t expect a list with a lot of people with very different values and preferences than mine to conform themselves to what I really want. Or even kind of want.
And that’s the difference. Live and let live. Even with assholes, who largely are just people with different values. I thought Eugine was being a dick, but . The world is an imperfect place. Other people are being karma dicks here, but . I’d rather we kept our powder dry for things that really mattered.
I do see a problem with that strategy, but I don’t know that you’re going to like the solution. Basically, people who give others slack are great when they get together. They have a nice buffer from real conflict. Throw in a few random slack takers, and they’re annoying, but the preponderance of slackers can easily mitigate the damage and dissuade the assholes through numbers, if not intensity.
But when with enough slack takers, and particularly those pulling in the same direction, slack givers are just giving out more and more slack until the slack takers hang them with it. A few random slack takers like Eugine aren’t a problem, but a large contingent of slack takers pulling in the same direction are. Against them, slack givers may have to hold the line on slack.
Again, not what I really want, but maybe what I should be doing.
I see your points, but...
But what if shunning didn’t work?
I have 12 500 or so Karma. That gives me around 50 000 downvotes. That’s enough to zero out tens if not hundreds of contributors, especially if I concentrated on newbies. I could literally zero them out—keep them at zero, whatever they posted (and prevent them from posting top level comments), and either break them or the Karma system. Then once they’d left, I could reverse all my downvotes, and apply them to someone else.
If I was that cruel, and willing to ignore people’s opinions, then shunning would have no effect on me, nor would it reduce my power to cause destruction. At some point, something other that social means would be needed to stop me.
Thank you for listening to them.
Exactly. “At some point.” We were a good ways away from the hypothetical you described. Social response should be commensurate with the social problem.
The example given is some guy who lost like 40 points? Let’s say that was the scale of the issue for a dozen people. This is a trivial problem for any individual, save for their propensity to curl up in a fetal position when someone on the internet expresses through those 40 points that he thinks their posts aren’t up to snuff.
I think I’ve lost more karma responding to this nonsense, and spent much time responding as well, because I find the response a little out of proportion, a little unfair, and worst of all, an empowering of the “you hurt my feelings, shut up” principle.
The social problem he was responding to was a perceived worsening of the signal to noise ratio, and a sizable chunk of the list seemed to share that opinion, and share that karma feedback was an appropriate response for the desired end state of shutting some people up, though I think that individual karma bombing has limited support.
I believe the solution I had suggested was for the moderators to contact the karma bomber and tell him “hey, you’re causing a problem, can you knock it off?”
That might have ended it without further escalation, and we could have all go on our merry way.
I don’t know the details of the discussion between Kaj and Eugine. Maybe that was it.
Solution if he won’t knock it off?
I’m torn. Which is the bigger problem—people taking action to protect their tender ears from the “noise” of posts they don’t like, or people taking action to protect their tender feelings from being hurt when someone expresses disapproval? Both are quite disruptive and tiresome, IMO.
First, there should be pretty easy technical countermeasures that would limit the power of any karma bombing campaign. Limiting all votes to your karma limit would be a nice start, particularly compelling to the signal to noise enthusiasts.
Second, often these “I’ve been karma bombed” threads provoke a karma telethon, where the target gets karma back and “validation” from interested parties. User affirmed, gets karma back, and widespread condemnation of karma bombing educates users on the problem of karma bombing and the general disapproval of it. Probably a necessary price to pay periodically.
Third, if the list wants to make an explicit policy against karma bombing, fine, let them do it, but applying it retroactively is bad form, IMO. The policy could be made after a thread inviting opinions on the policy, where people could discuss the general issue of policy somewhat divorced from their interest in a particular instance. This is a price I’d hope we could have avoided.
Fourth—I think there is widespread disapproval of karma bombing, even from the signal to noise purifiers. If the behavior continues in the face of explicit policy, then you can kick him off while mitigating any backlash and mollifying people with more concern for due process.
You make some valid points. And possibly I’d have done things differently, were I a moderator. Possibly.
But this kind of phrasing isn’t helpful:
Either the overall Karma system does its job (by using feelings, or reputation, or whatever), or it doesn’t. It doesn’t, no one would care. Clearly, they do care, so it is doing some of its job. Yay!
Eugine exploited a technical and social loophole, and threatened to destroy the whole system. Hyperbole? Do you really want to see competitive karma bombing, rushing to nuke your opponent’s score before they can do it to you? Reducing this level of misbehaviour to “feelings were hurt” is entirely misleading. Eugine cheated (exploited what was self evidently a difficult to close loophole), people got angry at being cheated (a useful evolutionary response) and the cheating could have irreparably damaged the website.
Yeah, I get that a lot.
Then again, I think a lot of other people’s phrasing isn’t helpful. I think many of their ideas are positively harmful. But in any group, I don’t always expect to get my way.
It’s funny that all the people bemoaning his karma bombing of others where he perceives their irrationality, have little compunction about karma bombing my posts here so that I have to spend karma to not be rude and leave people hanging who took the time and effort to respond to me.
I’ve made arguments all the way through here. Anyone here saying I’m simply irrational? Not making any points? Can’t put an argument together?
Not that I’ve seen. It’s all tone. It’s all about hurt feelings. It’s all about having different values. If I were karma voting on those terms, I’d get carpal tunnel syndrome in a week. Click click click click click.
Look upthread at my −6, followed by your 100% +9. So, in your estimate, is that an accurate evaluation of our comparative rationality in those two posts? I was abysmally irrational, and you’re pristinely rational and insightful?
Looking at the pattern of votes, I think it’s unlikely that even the majority of my downvotes came from people who actually read each of my posts. A lot of people are just signaling disapproval. Like Eugine was doing.
Eugine is at least downvoting people on his perception of their rationality quotient.
Who’s really cheating here?
But is there anyone sharpening the tines of their pitchforks for these new cheaters? Strange how the pitchforks magically align to ideological north, instead of cheating north.
Hurt feelings are the crux of the matter. The “cheating” business is a minor transgression serving as rationalization for the picthforks, and as we’ve seen, a rationalization hardly consistently applied.
Turn all of Eugine’s downvotes to upvotes. Still “cheating”. Should provoke the same outrage, if the outrage was really about cheating. Do you maintain upvotes would have provoked the same outrage?
I think, people would have disapproved a little, but there would have nowhere near the level of stink about it, and he would not have been banned.
Yep. He was a minor annoyance that people blew up into major drama that was much more destructive.
Meanwhile, he was also a poster with 9000 karma. Seems like he was producing a good deal of value for some people. Not anymore.
As to what I’d really want—to be God Emperor, of course, but the Universe shows no sign of obliging any time soon. So I’m putting those plans on hold for the near future, and likewise don’t expect a list with a lot of people with very different values and preferences than mine to conform themselves to what I really want. Or even kind of want.
And that’s the difference. Live and let live. Even with assholes, who largely are just people with different values. I thought Eugine was being a dick, but . The world is an imperfect place. Other people are being karma dicks here, but . I’d rather we kept our powder dry for things that really mattered.
I do see a problem with that strategy, but I don’t know that you’re going to like the solution. Basically, people who give others slack are great when they get together. They have a nice buffer from real conflict. Throw in a few random slack takers, and they’re annoying, but the preponderance of slackers can easily mitigate the damage and dissuade the assholes through numbers, if not intensity.
But when with enough slack takers, and particularly those pulling in the same direction, slack givers are just giving out more and more slack until the slack takers hang them with it. A few random slack takers like Eugine aren’t a problem, but a large contingent of slack takers pulling in the same direction are. Against them, slack givers may have to hold the line on slack.
Again, not what I really want, but maybe what I should be doing.