So, ignoring your classification of cleavage as “body posture” …
On one hand, we have advice for male-to-female engagement that has a solid history of enhancing male attractiveness and which is enjoyed by females, and on the other hand we have advice that is about manipulating men’s hardwired judgment mechanisms, thereby subverting their better long-term interests.
And your question is why people condemn the first kind of advice, have I got that right?
Just because your objection parallels my comment in form doesn’t automatically make its content a correct refutation; and someone other than me has warned you that the tactic doesn’t serve you particularly well.
Do you or do you not agree that “think of her as a child” involves changing your mental state, while “show cleavage and arch your back” does not?
Your reply above directs attention away from this difference and toward the supposed “history of success” of the first form of advice.
This is shifting the goalposts, if your intent is still to understand why the first form is more often objected to. Whether the advice is sound or not is a separate matter.
Not sticking to one query is a classic reason why threads go out of hand (as this one has, once again).
Just because your objection parallels my comment in form doesn’t automatically make its content a correct refutation; and someone other than me has warned you that the tactic doesn’t serve you particularly well.
I’m aware of how people get angry when their own argument methods are turned around and force them to think critically about the basis for their own beliefs—though I don’t think that’s happening in your case. (The anger on your part isn’t happening, I mean—I do believe you are reflecting critically on your own beliefs, or at least are making a genuine effort.)
The point of me mimicking your form was not to be cute (although that was a neat side effect), but rather, to show that a simple reframing of the issue—by highlighting different salient aspects—would reverse the “obvious” answer to your question.
On one hand we have advice that is about body posture, and on the other hand we have advice that is about persuading yourself of things that are not true, such as thinking of an adult human as if they were a child.
You claim advice about body posture to be benign, while believing false, offensive things is obviously bad by comparison. (The latter is a strawman of course: the advice is to, like an actor, go into a different mindset in order to have a generating function for your actions, which turns out to be preferable by the “target” of it. The advice is not to believe that adult women are disobedient children as if it were some more objective or universal aspect of reality.)
Do you or do you not agree that “think of her as a child” involves changing your mental state, while “show cleavage and arch your back” does not?
Of course I agree, but this is a poor metric. Isn’t it more important what the advice causes in the other party’s mind? If “think of her as a child” generates actions, on my part, that the woman deems preferable, what does it matter that my mental state is changed? If a woman uses attire and posture that causes me to “think below the waist”, isn’t the impact on my mental state more important—because of the diminishing of informed consent [1] -- than the impact on the woman’s mental state?
Your reply above directs attention away from this difference and toward the supposed “history of success” of the first form of advice.
Because, as explained above, it’s not apparent how that’s a relevant metric or difference.
This is shifting the goalposts, if your intent is still to understand why the first form is more often objected to. Whether the advice is sound or not is a separate matter.
If the advice actually benefits women, that should negate any objectionability of the advice that is grounded on harm to women. Failure to speak frankly about the commonality of the kind of woman benefitting, while instead giving full weight to the supposedly-universal preferences of the most vocal feminists … to me, that looks like a social failing.
[1] Yes, yes, I lose status by mentioning that this can happen, &c. C’est la vie.
someone other than me has warned you that the tactic doesn’t serve you particularly well.
It isn’t usually a successful tactic, which is somewhat of a shame, given that it can serve to demonstrate how a particular (mis)use of argument is flawed. People on average don’t have the respect for consistency that I would prefer.
OK, we’re at least getting closer to something concrete:
do you think neither of the above is about changing your mind
do you think both of the above are about changing your mind
do you think the polarities are opposite to the ones I’m assuming?
It seems to me that “think of her as a child” is objectionable for the same reason that “think of the moon as being made of green cheese” would be: the proposition in question is false.
Whereas showing cleavage and arching your back have no comparable epistemic content. There is no “true shape of the breasts” or “true posture of the body”, no facts of the matter that warrant a comparison as in the other case.
If it takes an essay to state where you stand on those, I’m happy to wait until later. But if you can briefly state your objection, I’d be interested to hear it.
If it takes an essay to state where you stand on those, I’m happy to wait until later. But if you can briefly state your objection, I’d be interested to hear it.
In the grandparent here I merely allude to the claim that humans cannot change their body language, particularly sexual body language without it being about changing their mental state. Body and mind are just too linked, such that advice about ‘thoughts’ is often intended to work by changing posture and vise versa. But this is tangential and not related to the actual disagreement I have with your argument.
It seems to me that “think of her as a child” is objectionable for the same reason that “think of the moon as being made of green cheese” would be: the proposition in question is false.
See earlier reply. You misunderstand the suggestion. Replace ‘think’ with ‘treat her as though’ (and don’t leave out the ‘disobedient’ in either case) and I would expect the same (or a worse) reaction even though it completely avoids your technical epistemic objection.
ETA: I deleted the grandparent before Morendil replied. Not because I don’t support it but because I decided it would just be distracting. It was. ;)
“Treat her as if she were a disobedient child” still strikes me as predictably objectionable, because the statement is being made about an adult woman, which should screen off obedience being an issue; obedience isn’t expected of adults.
The specific bit of PUA advice we’re discussing here amounts to paternalism. Showing cleavage doesn’t. This is why people—men and women—object to the former more readily than to the latter. (Some men may approve of paternalism, but they are just wrong.)
I don’t reject ‘all that’. I did rejected a specific straw man you presented for the reasons I have already mentioned and. I don’t feel obliged to suggest that your claims here are outlandish since I am not particularly opposed to your overall position. That is, I think both you and Silas have valid points but I would not support either position as they stand, preferring a different emphasis (and a whole heap less moral judgement).
(Allow me to engage in the obedience/paternalism subject in a different comment, since that moves us to a somewhat different claim, where the lines are not already drawn in the sand.)
That is, I think both you and Silas have valid points but I would not support either position as they stand, preferring a different emphasis (and a whole heap less moral judgement).
This is my view also. I agree with practically all your commentary on their discussion.
which should screen off obedience being an issue; obedience isn’t expected of adults.
It is expected by sexy adults. It is also often given to those same adults ;)
The specific bit of PUA advice we’re discussing here amounts to paternalism. Showing cleavage doesn’t.
No it doesn’t. Someone would have to think of a different pejorative term. If they were into that sort of thing.
This is why people—men and women—object to the former more readily than to the latter.
People in general don’t object to the former more readily than the latter. It varies drastically with personality type, sex and subculture. The people that most object to paternalism are male nerds while the people that (I expect to) most approve of paternalism are conservative religious women. I have seen each of those classes of advice condemned to different degrees in different communities that I have been involved in.
(Some men may approve of paternalism, but they are just wrong.)
Ouch. That sounds like just the sort of ideal that provoke outrage in the face of practical advice.
I am not a huge fan of paternalism myself. In fact, I have in the past ended a relationship with a woman because I just wasn’t willing to be as paternalistic as she desired. I don’t begrudge her that preference and certainly don’t think she is just wrong for preferring a more paternalistic dynamic than I do.
The people that most object to paternalism are male nerds while the people that (I expect to) most approve of paternalism are conservative religious women.
Why those groups in particular? They are toward those ends, but I think I would have (maybe superficially/naively) said “radical feminists” and “conservative religious men”, respectively. Don’t necessarily disagree, but I’m very curious.
Those were just listed off the top of my head and biased towards groups and situations in which the advice is most relevant.
I suppose you may be right about he radical feminists with respect to paternalism, although I don’t naturally distinguish between common behaviour patterns based on the genitalia of the actor. I’m going with Morendil’s word here but to the extent that ‘paternalism’ implies ‘when done by males’ I would perhaps want to use a different word.
The people that most object to paternalism are male nerds while the people that (I expect to) most approve of paternalism are conservative religious women.
Those groups do lie towards each end, but why do you say they’re the extremes? Why not, oh, the superficial obvious guesses “radical feminists” and “conservative religious men”? I don’t necessarily disagree, but I’m very curious.
which should screen off obedience being an issue; obedience isn’t expected of adults.
It is expected by sexy adults. It is also often given to those same adults ;)
This leaves out whether you mean adults who like sex or adults who you consider attractive, not to mention whether it’s true of everyone in either of those categories, or whether it’s just some proportion.
It also doesn’t quantise just how ‘often’ the obedience is given to that proportion, what the exact scope of commands over which such obedience is granted, what measures of age and or maturity allow the designation ‘adult’, which group of adults are those doing the obeying and what level of obsequiousness is expected during compliance.
Hopefully what were clear were the assertions:
Obedience of the kind described is in fact expected of adults at times.
Having this expectation has a clear influence on sexual attraction.
On one hand, we have advice for male-to-female engagement that has a solid history of enhancing male attractiveness and which is enjoyed by females, and on the other hand we have advice that is about manipulating men’s hardwired judgment mechanisms, thereby subverting their better long-term interests.
You’ve got this backwards. Manipulating a man’s perception of attractiveness in order to secure short-term mating is in a man’s (evolutionary) interest. Manipulating a woman’s perception of attractiveness to secure short-term mating, on the other hand, is not in a woman’s (evolutionary) interest.
(Also, you conveniently ignored the bit where both manipulations are enjoyed by the recipients. If I weren’t so certain you sincerely believe in your biased perspective, I’d have to conclude you were deliberately trolling at this point.)
Manipulating a woman’s perception of attractiveness to secure short-term mating, on the other hand, is not in a woman’s (evolutionary) interest.
Nope, this is outdated. I’ll try to return to it, but there are actually a lot of hypotheses that suggest that some types of short-term mating were adaptive for females. See the good genes hypothesis, sexy son hypothesis, and Hrdy’s work on female choice.
(Practically everything else you’ve said in this discussion is gold, btw, so I hope you’ll forgive me for being brusque.)
Manipulating a man’s perception of attractiveness in order to secure short-term mating is in a man’s (evolutionary) interest.
Why would men have evolved to have perceptions of attractiveness that don’t track (are more conservative, when not manipulated, than would be in) their evolutionary interest?
Also, I thought we were talking about normative interests, what’s actually good for someone. Why are you bringing up evolutionary interests in the first place?
Also, you conveniently ignored the bit where both manipulations are enjoyed by the recipients. If I weren’t so certain you sincerely believe in your biased perspective, I’d have to conclude you were deliberately trolling at this point.
This. Also the bit where both manipulations affect hardwired judgment mechanisms, of course.
You’ve got this backwards. Manipulating a man’s perception of attractiveness in order to secure short-term mating is in a man’s (evolutionary) interest.
You’re filling in things that aren’t there. A woman can use her looks to get non-sexual favors out of men, and the advice that gets her to that level of looks is widely and unashamedly given (though not of course the suggestion to use it for bad manipulation).
The advice that would get men to a comparable level of attractiveness (i.e. even using non-sexual manipulation goals as the standard), by contrast, is not widely and unashamedly given.
The parallel therefore holds, despite the difference in goals.
Why don’t you spell out the mapping? Because everything looks parallel to me. Let’s start from the beginning. I reversed Morendil’s characterization of male vs. female attractiveness advice to cast the latter in a bad light:
on the other hand we have advice that is about manipulating men’s hardwired judgment mechanisms, thereby subverting their better long-term interests.
On what basis do you dispute that this accurately describes effective female-sexiness-enhancing advice? Sure, men would enjoy it if she used it get sexual favors … but they wouldn’t enjoy it if she used it to get them to do non-sexual favors (with a false hint of the chance for sex).
So, the quoted advice most certainly does count as being “against men’s long-term interests”, like I claimed. And (to tie it back in to the original topic), women can easily get accurate information about how to get to this attractiveness state. Men? Not so much. (Sorry for the cliche.)
On what basis do you dispute that this accurately describes effective female-sexiness-enhancing advice? Sure, men would enjoy it if she used it get sexual favors … but they wouldn’t enjoy it if she used it to get them to do non-sexual favors (with a false hint of the chance for sex).
Are you saying that even known-false sexual attention from attractive females isn’t enjoyed by men? Men pay for this at strip clubs and other places all day long.
women can easily get accurate information about how to get to this attractiveness state
I still don’t see the symmetry here. If you’re looking at things from the POV of mating goals, there is no bias—women have just as much difficulty getting accurate information, if not more, since there isn’t nearly as large a reverse-PUA industry for getting men to commit to long-term relationships.
If you’re discussing non-mating goals, then materials like “How To Marry A Rich Man” are just as socially-denigrated as pickup.
Last—and utterly devastating to your claims—there are widely available materials that explain how to be attractive to women, but which do not aim at sex as their goal, and these materials do not suffer from the same social stigma (because, as with women’s beauty materials, they are about improving the attractor rather than manipulating the attractee).
Specifically, plenty of books and other materials are available to teach men how to be stylish, sociable, and confident, quite well enough to improve their chances of being able to get sex from women with the “false hint” of a chance for a relationship or good genes.
The only way in which you can force an asymmetry to exist here, is if you either deliberately compare materials with asymmetric goals in areas where men and women are symmetric in inclination, or compare materials with symmetric goals in areas where men and women are asymmetric in inclination. This makes yours a tortured argument and extremely limited evidence of your position.
In contrast, under every other way of comparing the situation for men and women, we see:
Similar social stigma for things that state as their goal the manipulation of the opposite sex as an object to achieve the target audience’s goals
Similar lack of stigma for things that state as their goal the improved attractiveness of the target audience for the benefit of themselves and the opposite sex, and
Similar stigma for either admitting to true-things-that-work but are socially repugnan, with the expected relative lack of available advice concerning such socially-stigmatized truths.
The only way I can see to claim asymmetry under these conditions is to start from a premise of asymmetry, and then torture the facts until they give in.
Last—and utterly devastating to your claims—there are widely available materials that explain how to be attractive to women, but which do not aim at sex as their goal, and these materials do not suffer from the same social stigma (because, as with women’s beauty materials, they are about improving the attractor rather than manipulating the attractee).
I must emphasise that “but do not have sex as the goal” is a completely different issue to “they are about improving the attractor rather than manipulating the attractee”. Having sex as a goal isn’t manipulative. In fact, acknowledging that sex is a goal can make the approach far less manipulative than if a façade of political correctness is maintained but sex is still sought after.
On what basis do you dispute that this accurately describes effective female-sexiness-enhancing advice? Sure, men would enjoy it if she used it get sexual favors … but they wouldn’t enjoy it if she used it to get them to do non-sexual favors (with a false hint of the chance for sex).
Are you saying that even known-false sexual attention from attractive females isn’t enjoyed by men? Men pay for this at strip clubs and other places all day long.
No, that clearly isn’t what Silas is saying there. He is talking about hints that actually give a deceptive indication that sex is likely to be granted if favours are done. (To which I would always add a ‘shame on you if she fools you twice’ emphasis.)
No, that clearly isn’t what Silas is saying there. He is talking about hints that actually give a deceptive indication that sex is likely to be granted if favours are done.
Well, it wasn’t clear to me—especially since that would make it equivalent to men’s false declarations of love or resources to get sex… and the information allowing men to do that is just as available as the information that allows women to know they could false-promise sex to get resources.
And in both cases, the behavior is looked down on by society.
So, it would’ve been an odd interpretation for me to read into what he said, given that I was trying to interpret his evidence in the best possible light, not the worst one. ;-)
(i.e., refute your opponent’s strong points, not the weak ones)
Well, it wasn’t clear to me—especially since that would make it equivalent to men’s false declarations of love or resources to get sex…
I agree about the equivalence.
And in both cases, the behavior is looked down on by society.
I suggest that the ‘false declaration of love to get sex’ is frowned upon far more than ‘false hint of sex to get resources’. The treatment of the ‘victim’ in each case tends to be different too (the sympathy vs contempt balance is different).
I’m not sure which of Silas or your positions this claims supports since I’m not particularly attached to either. I argue that the significant asymmetry is different in nature to that being primarily debated here.
So, ignoring your classification of cleavage as “body posture” …
On one hand, we have advice for male-to-female engagement that has a solid history of enhancing male attractiveness and which is enjoyed by females, and on the other hand we have advice that is about manipulating men’s hardwired judgment mechanisms, thereby subverting their better long-term interests.
And your question is why people condemn the first kind of advice, have I got that right?
Just because your objection parallels my comment in form doesn’t automatically make its content a correct refutation; and someone other than me has warned you that the tactic doesn’t serve you particularly well.
Do you or do you not agree that “think of her as a child” involves changing your mental state, while “show cleavage and arch your back” does not?
Your reply above directs attention away from this difference and toward the supposed “history of success” of the first form of advice.
This is shifting the goalposts, if your intent is still to understand why the first form is more often objected to. Whether the advice is sound or not is a separate matter.
Not sticking to one query is a classic reason why threads go out of hand (as this one has, once again).
I’m aware of how people get angry when their own argument methods are turned around and force them to think critically about the basis for their own beliefs—though I don’t think that’s happening in your case. (The anger on your part isn’t happening, I mean—I do believe you are reflecting critically on your own beliefs, or at least are making a genuine effort.)
The point of me mimicking your form was not to be cute (although that was a neat side effect), but rather, to show that a simple reframing of the issue—by highlighting different salient aspects—would reverse the “obvious” answer to your question.
You claim advice about body posture to be benign, while believing false, offensive things is obviously bad by comparison. (The latter is a strawman of course: the advice is to, like an actor, go into a different mindset in order to have a generating function for your actions, which turns out to be preferable by the “target” of it. The advice is not to believe that adult women are disobedient children as if it were some more objective or universal aspect of reality.)
Of course I agree, but this is a poor metric. Isn’t it more important what the advice causes in the other party’s mind? If “think of her as a child” generates actions, on my part, that the woman deems preferable, what does it matter that my mental state is changed? If a woman uses attire and posture that causes me to “think below the waist”, isn’t the impact on my mental state more important—because of the diminishing of informed consent [1] -- than the impact on the woman’s mental state?
Because, as explained above, it’s not apparent how that’s a relevant metric or difference.
If the advice actually benefits women, that should negate any objectionability of the advice that is grounded on harm to women. Failure to speak frankly about the commonality of the kind of woman benefitting, while instead giving full weight to the supposedly-universal preferences of the most vocal feminists … to me, that looks like a social failing.
[1] Yes, yes, I lose status by mentioning that this can happen, &c. C’est la vie.
It isn’t usually a successful tactic, which is somewhat of a shame, given that it can serve to demonstrate how a particular (mis)use of argument is flawed. People on average don’t have the respect for consistency that I would prefer.
I don’t, and could write an essay or three on the subject. But that’s not where your rhetorical intent is leading you...
OK, we’re at least getting closer to something concrete:
do you think neither of the above is about changing your mind
do you think both of the above are about changing your mind
do you think the polarities are opposite to the ones I’m assuming?
It seems to me that “think of her as a child” is objectionable for the same reason that “think of the moon as being made of green cheese” would be: the proposition in question is false.
Whereas showing cleavage and arching your back have no comparable epistemic content. There is no “true shape of the breasts” or “true posture of the body”, no facts of the matter that warrant a comparison as in the other case.
If it takes an essay to state where you stand on those, I’m happy to wait until later. But if you can briefly state your objection, I’d be interested to hear it.
In the grandparent here I merely allude to the claim that humans cannot change their body language, particularly sexual body language without it being about changing their mental state. Body and mind are just too linked, such that advice about ‘thoughts’ is often intended to work by changing posture and vise versa. But this is tangential and not related to the actual disagreement I have with your argument.
See earlier reply. You misunderstand the suggestion. Replace ‘think’ with ‘treat her as though’ (and don’t leave out the ‘disobedient’ in either case) and I would expect the same (or a worse) reaction even though it completely avoids your technical epistemic objection.
ETA: I deleted the grandparent before Morendil replied. Not because I don’t support it but because I decided it would just be distracting. It was. ;)
“Treat her as if she were a disobedient child” still strikes me as predictably objectionable, because the statement is being made about an adult woman, which should screen off obedience being an issue; obedience isn’t expected of adults.
The specific bit of PUA advice we’re discussing here amounts to paternalism. Showing cleavage doesn’t. This is why people—men and women—object to the former more readily than to the latter. (Some men may approve of paternalism, but they are just wrong.)
What’s so outlandish about all that?
I don’t reject ‘all that’. I did rejected a specific straw man you presented for the reasons I have already mentioned and. I don’t feel obliged to suggest that your claims here are outlandish since I am not particularly opposed to your overall position. That is, I think both you and Silas have valid points but I would not support either position as they stand, preferring a different emphasis (and a whole heap less moral judgement).
(Allow me to engage in the obedience/paternalism subject in a different comment, since that moves us to a somewhat different claim, where the lines are not already drawn in the sand.)
This is my view also. I agree with practically all your commentary on their discussion.
It is expected by sexy adults. It is also often given to those same adults ;)
No it doesn’t. Someone would have to think of a different pejorative term. If they were into that sort of thing.
People in general don’t object to the former more readily than the latter. It varies drastically with personality type, sex and subculture. The people that most object to paternalism are male nerds while the people that (I expect to) most approve of paternalism are conservative religious women. I have seen each of those classes of advice condemned to different degrees in different communities that I have been involved in.
Ouch. That sounds like just the sort of ideal that provoke outrage in the face of practical advice.
I am not a huge fan of paternalism myself. In fact, I have in the past ended a relationship with a woman because I just wasn’t willing to be as paternalistic as she desired. I don’t begrudge her that preference and certainly don’t think she is just wrong for preferring a more paternalistic dynamic than I do.
Why those groups in particular? They are toward those ends, but I think I would have (maybe superficially/naively) said “radical feminists” and “conservative religious men”, respectively. Don’t necessarily disagree, but I’m very curious.
Those were just listed off the top of my head and biased towards groups and situations in which the advice is most relevant.
I suppose you may be right about he radical feminists with respect to paternalism, although I don’t naturally distinguish between common behaviour patterns based on the genitalia of the actor. I’m going with Morendil’s word here but to the extent that ‘paternalism’ implies ‘when done by males’ I would perhaps want to use a different word.
“Parentalism”?
(And “maternalism” when done by females? ;-))
Those groups do lie towards each end, but why do you say they’re the extremes? Why not, oh, the superficial obvious guesses “radical feminists” and “conservative religious men”? I don’t necessarily disagree, but I’m very curious.
This leaves out whether you mean adults who like sex or adults who you consider attractive, not to mention whether it’s true of everyone in either of those categories, or whether it’s just some proportion.
It also doesn’t quantise just how ‘often’ the obedience is given to that proportion, what the exact scope of commands over which such obedience is granted, what measures of age and or maturity allow the designation ‘adult’, which group of adults are those doing the obeying and what level of obsequiousness is expected during compliance.
Hopefully what were clear were the assertions:
Obedience of the kind described is in fact expected of adults at times.
Having this expectation has a clear influence on sexual attraction.
You’ve got this backwards. Manipulating a man’s perception of attractiveness in order to secure short-term mating is in a man’s (evolutionary) interest. Manipulating a woman’s perception of attractiveness to secure short-term mating, on the other hand, is not in a woman’s (evolutionary) interest.
(Also, you conveniently ignored the bit where both manipulations are enjoyed by the recipients. If I weren’t so certain you sincerely believe in your biased perspective, I’d have to conclude you were deliberately trolling at this point.)
pjeby said:
Nope, this is outdated. I’ll try to return to it, but there are actually a lot of hypotheses that suggest that some types of short-term mating were adaptive for females. See the good genes hypothesis, sexy son hypothesis, and Hrdy’s work on female choice.
(Practically everything else you’ve said in this discussion is gold, btw, so I hope you’ll forgive me for being brusque.)
Why would men have evolved to have perceptions of attractiveness that don’t track (are more conservative, when not manipulated, than would be in) their evolutionary interest?
Also, I thought we were talking about normative interests, what’s actually good for someone. Why are you bringing up evolutionary interests in the first place?
This. Also the bit where both manipulations affect hardwired judgment mechanisms, of course.
You’re filling in things that aren’t there. A woman can use her looks to get non-sexual favors out of men, and the advice that gets her to that level of looks is widely and unashamedly given (though not of course the suggestion to use it for bad manipulation).
The advice that would get men to a comparable level of attractiveness (i.e. even using non-sexual manipulation goals as the standard), by contrast, is not widely and unashamedly given.
The parallel therefore holds, despite the difference in goals.
Unless you’re talking about non-sexual mating goals, you’ve now broken the symmetry yourself.
Why don’t you spell out the mapping? Because everything looks parallel to me. Let’s start from the beginning. I reversed Morendil’s characterization of male vs. female attractiveness advice to cast the latter in a bad light:
On what basis do you dispute that this accurately describes effective female-sexiness-enhancing advice? Sure, men would enjoy it if she used it get sexual favors … but they wouldn’t enjoy it if she used it to get them to do non-sexual favors (with a false hint of the chance for sex).
So, the quoted advice most certainly does count as being “against men’s long-term interests”, like I claimed. And (to tie it back in to the original topic), women can easily get accurate information about how to get to this attractiveness state. Men? Not so much. (Sorry for the cliche.)
Are you saying that even known-false sexual attention from attractive females isn’t enjoyed by men? Men pay for this at strip clubs and other places all day long.
I still don’t see the symmetry here. If you’re looking at things from the POV of mating goals, there is no bias—women have just as much difficulty getting accurate information, if not more, since there isn’t nearly as large a reverse-PUA industry for getting men to commit to long-term relationships.
If you’re discussing non-mating goals, then materials like “How To Marry A Rich Man” are just as socially-denigrated as pickup.
Last—and utterly devastating to your claims—there are widely available materials that explain how to be attractive to women, but which do not aim at sex as their goal, and these materials do not suffer from the same social stigma (because, as with women’s beauty materials, they are about improving the attractor rather than manipulating the attractee).
Specifically, plenty of books and other materials are available to teach men how to be stylish, sociable, and confident, quite well enough to improve their chances of being able to get sex from women with the “false hint” of a chance for a relationship or good genes.
The only way in which you can force an asymmetry to exist here, is if you either deliberately compare materials with asymmetric goals in areas where men and women are symmetric in inclination, or compare materials with symmetric goals in areas where men and women are asymmetric in inclination. This makes yours a tortured argument and extremely limited evidence of your position.
In contrast, under every other way of comparing the situation for men and women, we see:
Similar social stigma for things that state as their goal the manipulation of the opposite sex as an object to achieve the target audience’s goals
Similar lack of stigma for things that state as their goal the improved attractiveness of the target audience for the benefit of themselves and the opposite sex, and
Similar stigma for either admitting to true-things-that-work but are socially repugnan, with the expected relative lack of available advice concerning such socially-stigmatized truths.
The only way I can see to claim asymmetry under these conditions is to start from a premise of asymmetry, and then torture the facts until they give in.
I must emphasise that “but do not have sex as the goal” is a completely different issue to “they are about improving the attractor rather than manipulating the attractee”. Having sex as a goal isn’t manipulative. In fact, acknowledging that sex is a goal can make the approach far less manipulative than if a façade of political correctness is maintained but sex is still sought after.
No, that clearly isn’t what Silas is saying there. He is talking about hints that actually give a deceptive indication that sex is likely to be granted if favours are done. (To which I would always add a ‘shame on you if she fools you twice’ emphasis.)
Well, it wasn’t clear to me—especially since that would make it equivalent to men’s false declarations of love or resources to get sex… and the information allowing men to do that is just as available as the information that allows women to know they could false-promise sex to get resources.
And in both cases, the behavior is looked down on by society.
So, it would’ve been an odd interpretation for me to read into what he said, given that I was trying to interpret his evidence in the best possible light, not the worst one. ;-)
(i.e., refute your opponent’s strong points, not the weak ones)
I agree about the equivalence.
I suggest that the ‘false declaration of love to get sex’ is frowned upon far more than ‘false hint of sex to get resources’. The treatment of the ‘victim’ in each case tends to be different too (the sympathy vs contempt balance is different).
I’m not sure which of Silas or your positions this claims supports since I’m not particularly attached to either. I argue that the significant asymmetry is different in nature to that being primarily debated here.