Actually, I’d say the four things to track (and this is actually simplifying a bit) are:
What the PUA’s say,
The specific behaviors meant, and
Women’s positive description of what perceiving those behaviors “feels like from the inside”
What’s actually “effective”, for some set of goals
Silas claims that #1 is “the truth” and #3 is “uninformative politician-speak”. I claim that omitting #3 from the discussion is (rightly) perceived as exclusionary and is therefore not a good idea.
AFAICT, we both agree that #3 is insufficient information for a man to understand #2 without #1, but Silas appears to claim that #3 is actively misleading and contradictory, as well as unnecessary.
I dispute this claim, however, since I found #3 to be of vital importance in translating #1 into #2, as well as being polite to include in a conversation for a general audience.
Of course, there is still the possibility that we actually disagree on #2 -- in particular, it may be that Silas is correct in saying that #3 is misleading relative to his perception of #2. (In which case, I think he has a mistaken understanding relative to #4 -- or at least, the version of #4 that relates to my goals for relationships.)
Whew. Complicated enough for you yet? ;-)
To the extent Silas and I disagree wrt goals for #4, or what’s actually meant by #2, the discussion is likely to be incoherent, so I suspect that may be the real problem. I’ve been attributing this incoherence to Silas being blinded by his emotions about the topic, but it’s certainly possible that it’s due to something else, such as a deeper disagreement on some premise we think we agree on.
or at least, the version of #4 that relates to my goals for relationships.
This is an interesting point. I think that a factor in whether or not a discussion of the venusian arts is perceived as offensive, is whether the goals it claims (or is perceived) to achieve aligns with the goals of the target.
The inclusion of your #3, while being inclusive in its own right, also serves to signal the alignment of goals.
Fairly straightforward, but also a reiteration of a straw man. Silas has repeatedly rejected the position you are ascribing to him and your continued misrepresentation is extremely poor form.
I imagine it would be, if I had any clue what you’re talking about.
You make assertions about what Silas claims (see grandparent). Silas has told you that this is not what he claims (and I have reiterated it in his defence). You engage in straw man fallacies. I dislike this behaviour.
You may disagree with the above, but to not have a clue what I’m talking about is motivated ignorance.
You make assertions about what Silas claims (see grandparent). Silas has told you that this is not what he claims (and I have reiterated it in his defence)
And it is not at all clear to me which specific assertions about Silas’s claims you are talking about. Perhaps it would be helpful if you could quote the specific segments of my summary comnment which you are saying are inaccurate regarding what you believe to be Silas’s claims, along with what claim you believe he’s making instead.
The time at which this conversation stopped being useful (in my estimation) was about 20 comments ago. For all my progress in self awareness I am sometimes slow to remember my policy of non-engagement in dynamics I don’t consider desirable. But eventually I remember. ;)
ISTM that it’s a bit rude to lob an accusation of motivated ignorance, then decline to answer a request for information. Despite your accusation, I am indeed genuinely curious regarding how it is that you think I’ve misstated Silas’s claims, since if I actually have, it is due to misunderstanding them—and resolving that misunderstanding would be helpful in wrapping up the thread.
Actually, I’d say the four things to track (and this is actually simplifying a bit) are:
What the PUA’s say,
The specific behaviors meant, and
Women’s positive description of what perceiving those behaviors “feels like from the inside”
What’s actually “effective”, for some set of goals
Silas claims that #1 is “the truth” and #3 is “uninformative politician-speak”. I claim that omitting #3 from the discussion is (rightly) perceived as exclusionary and is therefore not a good idea.
AFAICT, we both agree that #3 is insufficient information for a man to understand #2 without #1, but Silas appears to claim that #3 is actively misleading and contradictory, as well as unnecessary.
I dispute this claim, however, since I found #3 to be of vital importance in translating #1 into #2, as well as being polite to include in a conversation for a general audience.
Of course, there is still the possibility that we actually disagree on #2 -- in particular, it may be that Silas is correct in saying that #3 is misleading relative to his perception of #2. (In which case, I think he has a mistaken understanding relative to #4 -- or at least, the version of #4 that relates to my goals for relationships.)
Whew. Complicated enough for you yet? ;-)
To the extent Silas and I disagree wrt goals for #4, or what’s actually meant by #2, the discussion is likely to be incoherent, so I suspect that may be the real problem. I’ve been attributing this incoherence to Silas being blinded by his emotions about the topic, but it’s certainly possible that it’s due to something else, such as a deeper disagreement on some premise we think we agree on.
This is an interesting point. I think that a factor in whether or not a discussion of the venusian arts is perceived as offensive, is whether the goals it claims (or is perceived) to achieve aligns with the goals of the target.
The inclusion of your #3, while being inclusive in its own right, also serves to signal the alignment of goals.
I suppose the proper adjective “venereal” has been too tainted by association with disease for anything but giggle-worthy use.
My use of “venusian arts” was adopting PJEby’s vocabulary first? used here.
Yeah, I think it is good to stay away from the connotations of “venereal”.
OTOH “venusian” sounds like it’s about the planet.
Fairly straightforward, but also a reiteration of a straw man. Silas has repeatedly rejected the position you are ascribing to him and your continued misrepresentation is extremely poor form.
I imagine it would be, if I had any clue what you’re talking about. But I don’t.
You make assertions about what Silas claims (see grandparent). Silas has told you that this is not what he claims (and I have reiterated it in his defence). You engage in straw man fallacies. I dislike this behaviour.
You may disagree with the above, but to not have a clue what I’m talking about is motivated ignorance.
And it is not at all clear to me which specific assertions about Silas’s claims you are talking about. Perhaps it would be helpful if you could quote the specific segments of my summary comnment which you are saying are inaccurate regarding what you believe to be Silas’s claims, along with what claim you believe he’s making instead.
The time at which this conversation stopped being useful (in my estimation) was about 20 comments ago. For all my progress in self awareness I am sometimes slow to remember my policy of non-engagement in dynamics I don’t consider desirable. But eventually I remember. ;)
ISTM that it’s a bit rude to lob an accusation of motivated ignorance, then decline to answer a request for information. Despite your accusation, I am indeed genuinely curious regarding how it is that you think I’ve misstated Silas’s claims, since if I actually have, it is due to misunderstanding them—and resolving that misunderstanding would be helpful in wrapping up the thread.
Poor performance doesn’t imply bad motives (and dually).