Sure, but like above, they say the same thing about men doing the counterproductive stuff. A clock is broken even when it’s right twice a day.
I don’t think anyone here is saying: “listen to the women, they always know what is best”. Rather people are saying: “Hey men who know what women find attractive, you don’t need to phrase your true advice in such objectionable language.”
Not for “ordering them around”, you didn’t; there was no parallel in the advice you gave for that.
Not to bring this back to object level but I’m not sure “ordering them around” actually communicates good advice. There are circumstances where taking charge is attractive but it isn’t nearly as simple as “order them around” and I suspect whatever good advice is here can be phrased in a similarly unobjectionable way.
I don’t think anyone here is saying: “listen to the women, they always know what is best”. Rather people are saying: “Hey men who know what women find attractive, you don’t need to phrase your true advice in such objectionable language.”
I wouldn’t go as far as to support the (absolute part of the) first claim but I certainly support the second.
Not to bring this back to object level but I’m not sure “ordering them around” actually communicates good advice. There are circumstances where taking charge is attractive but it isn’t nearly as simple as “order them around” and I suspect whatever good advice is here can be phrased in a similarly unobjectionable way.
I disagree. Naturally things aren’t simple (simple isn’t a Nash equilibrium in the dating game!) but ‘ordering them around’ is good advice, particularly to those who most need dating advice. That class of guys tends to associate receiving orders with resentment and so tends to have a failure of empathy when it comes to their expectations of how women will react to similar assertions. “Order them around” is what they need to hear while the more abstract “taking charge” crosses too much of an inferential gap.
“Order them around” is what they need to hear while the more abstract “taking charge” crosses too much of an inferential gap.
I’ve seen more than one bit of PUA literature cross this gap by carefully pointing out how behavior X might seem asshole-ish among men, but is in fact perceived as positive quality Y when received by women from men, and further pointing out that it’s an error to assume this means one should act like an asshole in general.
Certainly, I don’t think teaching material should do any less. It’s likely that a properly framed discussion here relating the venusian arts to, say the Dark Arts, advertising, consent, consistent decision theories, etc. would also need to discuss both sides of that perceptual gap, at least in passing. (Albeit without so much detailed how-to info in between.)
I’ve seen more than one bit of PUA literature cross this gap by carefully pointing out how behavior X might seem asshole-ish among men, but is in fact perceived as positive quality Y when received by women from men, and further pointing out that it’s an error to assume this means one should act like an asshole in general.
That is a good way to teach it, even though it is somewhat of a lie (similar to teaching Newtonian physics). It usually isn’t healthy to teach about things that are actually perceived as a negative quality by women can also give desired results to men. That darker truth is best left until after people have developed their social skills and let go of their tendency to bury their frustration behind a façade of righteous indignation.
[What you were talking about] is a good way to teach it, even though it is somewhat of a lie (similar to teaching Newtonian physics). It usually isn’t healthy to teach about [the other part of the asshole equation that is glossed over by that approach,] that things that are actually perceived as a negative quality by women can also give desired results to men.
There are two messages to convey:
Some things you (naive guys) think will be a bad experience for women are actually a good experience, healthy for them and perceived as desirable.
Some things that are absolutely bad, unhealthy and perceived as undesirable by women can also be used to attract them.
The first of these (and the one that you mention) is a better subject of education. The second is a recipe for excuses, passive aggression and bitterness for people who don’t already have an appreciation for the first point.
I wouldn’t go as far as to support the (absolute part of the) first claim but I certainly support the second.
Yeah, the absolute part made it too strong.
I disagree. Naturally things aren’t simple (simple isn’t a Nash equilibrium in the dating game!) but ‘ordering them around’ is good advice, particularly to those who most need dating advice. That class of guys tends to associate receiving orders with resentment and so tends to have a failure of empathy when it comes to their expectations of how women will react to similar assertions. “Order them around” is what they need to hear while the more abstract “taking charge” crosses too much of an inferential gap.
We’re probably being too vague to evaluate this question. I read “order them around” and I picture men doing a lot of things that women probably won’t find very attractive. I suspect it might lead to the audience just trying to be mean to women thinking that will make them attractive. If I knew less about the subject that advice would lead me to do counterproductive things, I think. Language often needs to be tweaked for audiences that don’t understand right away. I might be in the minority when it comes to my interpretation of “ordering them around” but it really isn’t clear to me exactly what behaviors it recommends.
We’re probably being too vague to evaluate this question. I read “order them around” and I picture men doing a lot of things that women probably won’t find very attractive.
“Order them around” seems to be evocative of “Bitch, make me a sandwich!”
I actually have success (ie we both have fun and build attraction) when using such orders. But I do it playfully and there is a distinct element of counter-signalling involved (we both know I am not a controlling asshole) so how that data point relates to the topic is non-trivial.
Same here. But this is so context based I sort of doubt a bitter near-misogynist who just started reading attraction advice would be able to implement it correctly. In any case if this is the behavior that “order them around” recommends why not say “Women find it attractive when men can confidently joke and be ironic about traditional gender roles without worrying about being offensive.” And then give examples of this behavior and explain the counter-signaling going on.
When orders are given sincerely, they are usually more subtle:
Call me.
Come hang out with us on Friday.
Hold my umbrella for a sec? (the words are an order by the tonality is a question)
Would you hold my drink for a sec. (The words are a question but the tonality is an order)
The purpose of such orders is not to control the other person, it is to signal status.
Another use of orders (and other forms of dominance) is a reactive one, specifically reacting to “bad” or “naughty” female behavior. I put those words in quotes because perception of what is “bad” or “naughty” is somewhat subjective. Anyone experienced with young women (at least in Western culture) knows that some female personality types sometimes engage in behavior with men that could be considered “bratty” or “naughty,” by the standard of general cultural norms. PUAs hypothesize that these women do so consciously or unconsciously as a “test.”
What many people reading about PUA techniques (either critics or newbies) don’t realize is that a lot of the more controversial techniques such as dominance and status tactics are used in a highly contextual way. So these behaviors that wouldn’t be justifiable if dropped out of the blue would be justifiable if done in context, such as the context of responding to a “test.”
I am not completely wedded to the PUA view of when a woman is “testing” or not, and I recognize that false positives in that area could lead to a woman’s perspective being disregarded incorrectly. Yet I do think there are many examples of female “bad”, “bratty”, or “naughty” behavior that are correctly described by the PUA model of testing, and which do require a response. And one type of response can be behavior that would be unacceptable (or “assholish”) in other contexts, such as giving orders or strong negs.
For instance, if a woman has spent the last 10 minutes poking him and the joke has worn off, then a PUA might give her an order like “Hey, stop being such a brat.”
The ethics of dominance behaviors is context-dependent, and one factor in context is whether the other person is engaging in behavior that would be culturally considered to justify that response. Here is an example with neg-like behavior, where Monday night I ended up negging a woman kind of hard, because I perceived it as justified (even though I don’t believe in negging out of the blue):
Her: I’m trying to find N… I am going to tell him something that will make him happy...
Me: You’re the bearer of good news, huh?
Her: Yeah, I’m going to hang out for him with a whole day this weekend! He’s been wanting me to for ages.
[Now, by cultural norms, her behavior is a bit of arrogant. She was signalling that she has higher status that N. Social circles have status hierarchies, but it’s still a bit arrogant to practically come out and say that you are higher status than someone. What she communicated was “I am so much higher status and attractive that another guy in our social circle is lucky to hang out with me… and what’s more, I am so high status and attractive that I can get away with this self-enhancement with you!” So she was indirectly asserting status over me, also. I couldn’t let this assertion of higher status from her go unchallenged.]
Me: Ok, so that’s the bad news you’re bearing… but what’s the good news?
Her: (it took her a sec to get that the joke was on her, then she replied slightly haughtily and petulantly) Hey, I bet you’d be stoked if I spent a day hanging out at your house! [We both know this is true, from our previous interaction, but it’s a status ploy for her to explicitly point this out. My perception that I was seeing a “test” was confirmed. I think her behavior would be intersubjectively considered a bit immature, even by feminists how would normally be skeptical of many male claims of female “bad behavior.”]
Me: That depends… are you tidy?
Her: Yeah, I’m tidy...
Me: Great! Then I would in fact be stoked about you coming over to my house… you could help me tidy up my laundry
Her: You’re a jerk, you know...
Me: Yeah, I know!
Her: (reaches over and rubs my arm. This was a signal of attraction that let me know that I was calibrated correctly, and that she had enjoyed my response to her test. If I had detected that I had actually hurt her feelings by calling her “bad news,” then I would have instead taken steps to make her feel better or even apologized if I was miscalibrated.)
I signalled: “I don’t agree with your assertion of status over our mutual friend N. In fact, I think you are violating the norm of ostensible equality between friends by so nakedly attempting to assert your status. I assert that my status is high enough that I am justified in calling you on this behavior and making fun of you for it by joking that you are “bad news” and lowering your status. I am so high status that I find your attempts at elevating your status above N amusing, implying that I actually view myself as at least as high status as you, not merely trying to act as high status as you. I am not threatened by your status imposition, which is why I feel no need to explicitly call you on it. I am not afraid of your potential negative reaction to my enforcement of this norm; I expect you to take this tease and accept it as a justified response from me. Since you tried to violate the norm and claim status you don’t actually have, you actually lowered your own status, which is why I am justified in raising my status above yours at this time and delivering the status-deflation you deserve. I can tell that you are testing me by seeing if I will let you get away with your status assertion, and the answer is that I won’t. If you attempt such a norm-violating level of self-enhancement in the future, I will quickly and immediately burst your bubble.”
...or something like those things. I consider this a defensive use of status games; I wouldn’t neg a woman this hard if she wasn’t violating a norm and attempting to inflate her status. If I had let her get away with that behavior, then she would think that I thought that she deserved that level of status. She would engage in similar behavior in the future, and keep attempting to raise her status until she eventually considered her status higher than mine. If that happened, then not only would it destroy her attraction to me, but it would also destroy any chance of us having a quality friendship. Soon she would be referring to me as yet another of the guys who would be lucky to hang out with her.
Counter-intuitively, the way to maintain equality in my interaction with her was to engage in a status game, and deflate her status in a way that would not be justified in another context, such as out of the blue. In context, my lowering of her status was a deflation of the excess status that she was trying to claim, which is morally different from attempting to lower someone’s status unprovoked. Notice also that my goal wasn’t to “lower her self-esteem” it was to lower her level of narcissism and illegitimate status assertion.
It is by understanding power that I can achieve equality. Remember, as I mentioned before, a typical mode of social interaction is to try to increase your status incrementally until people stop you (like i stopped her). Unless you confine yourself to a nerd ghetto where people don’t play this sort of status games (and status is decided more by competence than by what you can get away with), you will need to engage in social power dynamics, if only as a defensive measure.
Status behavior (which may include giving orders) in a defensive context is in a different moral category from status behavior in other contexts. I hope this lengthy analysis is useful to someone, and opens their eyes to the fun world of subcommunication. Questions or disagreement is invited.
I really enjoy your writing on this subject, it’s informative and ethically enlightened in a way that most discussion of such topics usually isn’t.
When orders are given sincerely, they are usually more subtle
Call me.
Come hang out with us on Friday.
Hold my umbrella for a sec? (the words are an order by the tonality is a question)
Would you hold my drink for a sec. (The words are a question but the tonality is an order)
Returning to subject of my parent comment is there any reason this same advice couldn’t be communicated with “use imperative sentences” instead of “order them around”? The former seems both less offensive and less likely to lead to students being controlling (in a way that is poorly calibrated, unattractive and ethically ambiguous). I feel like it’s also worth noting that none of those examples are particularly unusual things to say. Among groups of platonic male heterosexuals of approximately equal status saying these things is totally routine and doesn’t even imply gaming or hidden agendas. The only reason it is meaningful advice for men trying to be more attractive to women is that the default behavior of so many men around women is to put them on a pedestal and start supplicating and self-flagellating. So some feminists are upset that PUAs are telling men to “order women around” when really a lot of the advice actually consists just telling them to treat women like the equals they are (I’ve said it before, treating someone as an equal doesn’t mean being super nice to them and deferring to them when possible). Part of this is probably feminists not looking at the actual advice closely enough, but I don’t think I could blame someone for thinking “order them around” implies something more offensive than “Call Me” (Do PUAs actually use the word “orders”? I don’t recall seeing it anywhere before this thread. The advice is familiar just not the wording.)
In fact, playing a status game with someone isn’t really the power play our language makes it out to be. A lot of time status games are just sort of skirmish played out between equals. The winner doesn’t really come out with significantly higher status, all they really get is something like a tip of the hat from those around them. This why, again returning to platonic male heterosexual relationships, guys can make fun of each other without permanent damage. It’s sort of like practicing, or like the way baby animals rough house. In fact, not only is there no permanent damage, this kind of behavior (at least in my experience, and at least this seems to be the conventional message) makes male heterosexual friendships stronger.
So when a man engages in a status game with a woman in addition to object level status claims like:
I assert that my status is high enough that I am justified in calling you on this behavior and making fun of you for it by joking that you are “bad news” and lowering your status. I am so high status that I find your attempts at elevating your status above N amusing, implying that I actually view myself as at least as high status as you, not merely trying to act as high status as you.
there is also sort of a meta-signaling of: “I think you are worthy competition and therefore about equal in status to me.” And like with male heterosexual friendships this kind of thing improves rapport. I actually think such status skirmishes might be quite central to healthy egalitarian relationships.
there is also sort of a meta-signaling of: “I think you are worthy competition and therefore about equal in status to me.” And like with male heterosexual friendships this kind of thing improves rapport. I actually think such status skirmishes might be quite central to healthy egalitarian relationships.
I agree. I think this element is what made the interaction mutually fun and attractive.
It would be helpful to have been there, to hear the tone throughout the exchange and observe your body language together, but I believe the interaction you describe seems familiar to me.
I agree she was testing you, and the outcome of the test was positive as she indicated by the affectionate body language of touching your arm. However, my interpretation of the test is more straightforward—I’d guess she was just seeking affirmation that you like spending time with her. I’ve often noticed that social norms (like modesty) are relaxed among women with men, especially if the context is flirtation. Also if she was testing you, she might have felt justified in relaxing the norm in order to get a more dependable test result.
I wonder to what extent generally, in male hacking of female social interaction with them, they’re coming up with the correct behaviors with the wrong theories behind them.
I think I would find the “bad news” poke you gave—which, funnily enough, is an aggression I would have incorrectly interpreted as provoked by jealousy rather than a disapproval of her status grab—more coy (and possibly more attractive) than a straight signal that you would be jealous and want her to hang with you. Instead, the counter-punch you gave signaled the desire to be with her without creating a request to contend with. It also seems attractive along the lines of a male acting more stereotypically male in an endearing way (jealous, and not admitting it).
I think you could have also passed the test by a straight signal that you liked hanging with her: “No, don’t hang out with him this weekend. Hang out with me.” In this case, you would also be signaling sincerity and a desire for a relationship, which may or may not have been appropriate for either of you. If you guys are “just friends”, then you could have the same response, but then I would expect you to overdo it a little until there is a laugh / affectionate punch on the arm.
I have more to say in response, but I will clarify one thing: the “bad news” jibe wasn’t implying that it was bad news for me that she was hanging out with him, it was implying that it was bad news for the other guy that she was hanging out with. I think that implication came across, because of her response which was to claim that I would want to hang out with her (which as interpreted as “any guy would want to hang out with me, including you, which is why it’s justified for me to so blatant assert that a guy is lucky to do so”).
I’m not sure if that’s why you interpreted my jibe as displaying jealousy; but if given my intended interpretation, I do agree that it could have subcommunicated jealousy, like a case of “sour grapes” on my part (which is slightly true, though not the primary reason for the jibe).
I will clarify one thing: the “bad news” jibe wasn’t implying that it was bad news for me that she was hanging out with him, it was implying that it was bad news for the other guy that she was hanging out with.
Yes, this is what I understood.
I’m not sure if that’s why you interpreted my jibe as displaying jealousy;
Only because a jealous response seemed to be expected and solicited. So I predicted she would have interpreted the jibe as a form of sour grapes, as I would have if I was eavesdropping on the conversation. (“You’re going to spend the whole day with him? … Poor him!” is an appropriately funny and defensive jealousy response.) However, from your description of the interaction, I understood that you weren’t actually displaying jealousy and she and I would have been somewhat mistaken about the initial effectiveness of her test. But then it lead to a conversation in which you did signal the desire to be with her, anyway.
But this is so context based I sort of doubt a bitter near-misogynist who just started reading attraction advice would be able to implement it correctly.
I wouldn’t give this advice to a bitter near-misogynist (and don’t have a special interest in advising bitter near-misogynists, that doesn’t usually work all that well anyway). I would give it to ‘good boys’ who are still under the impression that the polite supplication that sometimes works for keeping mommy happy is attractive to female peers. It opens up a whole new world to them.
why not say “Women find it attractive when men can confidently joke and be ironic about traditional gender roles without worrying about being offensive.” And then give examples of this behavior and explain the counter-signaling going on.
Because I consider this tangent distinctly different from the original ‘order them around’ discussion. In particular, I don’t think ‘order them around’ implies ‘refer to them as bitches’.
(I didn’t reject ChronoS’ claimed evocation because the tangent is interesting and had no inclination to invalidate his contribution. For the purpose of your attempt to build upon that evocation as a shared premise I do reject it.)
Rather people are saying: “Hey men who know what women find attractive, you don’t need to phrase your true advice in such objectionable language.”
Really? Are we looking at the same forum? Because of all criticisms of PUA discussion, I never saw anything of that form—most importantly, I don’t remember acknowledgement that it is true (just as society in general won’t admit it). Those who found it objectionable, like this characteristic poster, demanded much more serious straitjackets:
I would like help reducing the incidence of: … Fawning admiration of pickup artists who attain their fame by the systematic manipulation of women. If it is necessary to refer admiringly to a pickup artist or pickup strategy (I’m not sure why it would be, but if), care should be taken to choose one whose methods are explicitly non-depersonalizing, and disclaim that specifically in the comment.
That’s way beyond, “hey, use less objectionable language when making these true claims about what women find attractive”. Don’t you think so?
Sorry, “here” is ambiguous. I meant in the discussion presently occurring, perhaps I should have just said pjeby is only saying that but I felt like my statement applied to everyone who replied to your comments recently.
I never saw anything of that form—most importantly, I don’t remember acknowledgement that it is true (just as society in general won’t admit it). Those who found it objectionable, like this characteristic poster, demanded much more serious straitjackets:
My position is here. But yes, past discussions involved broader disagreement. I mostly meant that I didn’t think your interpretation of pjeby’s comment was accurate.
(ETA: I’m sympathetic to a lot of what she says but I’m not sure I’d agree alicorn was “characteristic” in that particular discussion.)
I’m wondering about this “taking charge” thing. Does it just apply when the woman isn’t very sure about what she wants? Or also when the male overrides a clear desire of hers? What if the man takes charge and turns out to be wrong about the outcome?
I’m wondering about this “taking charge” thing. Does it just apply when the woman isn’t very sure about what she wants? Or also when the male overrides a clear desire of hers?
The main context it’s discussed in is situations where no-one has expressed a strong preference. In the case of conflicting preferences, men are advised to be clear and non-deferential regarding their preferences, without necessarily “overriding” anything. The point is to show initiative and non-wishiwashiness, not to push people around.
What if the man takes charge and turns out to be wrong about the outcome?
Then how he handles that is the next test. ;-)
I saw an interesting discussion of the movie “300” that sort of relates to this. Someone said that in almost every action movie, there is a woman who wants the man to stay with her and not go do the dangerous thing that’s his mission in life. But, if he were the sort of man who would stay—who’d, before going off to war against the Persians, would say, “you’re right honey, I should just stay here with you and the kids”—then she wouldn’t have been attracted to him in the first place.
And, if he did change his mind and stay, the attraction and romance in the relationship would pretty much die right away.
So the advice to “take charge” is really just to be the sort of man who doesn’t let a woman talk him into things for the sake of immediate pleasure (or lack of immediate conflict), at the expense of long-term interests. Such a man may be too easily convinced to leave or to cheat by a different woman, and be a lousy protector who won’t do difficult or painful things in his family’s interest.
So, the function of taking charge is that the man must demonstrate that he can tell the difference between what a woman says she wants and what’s actually best in a given situation, as well as his nature as a man of constancy, certainty, and initiative. It’s not really about making decisions, per se.
(For example, some “chivalrous” gestures like opening a door, pulling out a chair, or giving your arm to someone can be forms of “taking charge” in the sense that they show purpose and initiative, even though no decision is really being made, nor are any orders being given.)
I saw an interesting discussion of the movie “300” that sort of relates to this. Someone said that in almost every action movie, there is a woman who wants the man to stay with her and not go do the dangerous thing that’s his mission in life. But, if he were the sort of man who would stay—who’d, before going off to war against the Persians, would say, “you’re right honey, I should just stay here with you and the kids”—then she wouldn’t have been attracted to him in the first place.
And, if he did change his mind and stay, the attraction and romance in the relationship would pretty much die right away.
That’s fictional evidence—that is, not evidence at all. All I’m sure of is it’s harder to make a movie about the guy who stayed home, though you could do it if trouble came looking for him.
That’s fictional evidence—that is, not evidence at all.
The person who wrote that was pointing to the fiction to give a point of common reference for his observation of the dynamics between men and women, not using the movie as his evidence.
The author’s observation (and mine) was that women tend to lose respect (and thus attraction) for a man who they can talk into delaying or abandoning things the man says are important to him. The movie version is just that idea writ large.
The main context it’s discussed in is situations where no-one has expressed a strong preference. In the case of conflicting preferences, men are advised to be clear and non-deferential regarding their preferences, without necessarily “overriding” anything. The point is to show initiative and non-wishiwashiness, not to push people around.
The initiative and non-wishiwashiness is the most important factor but sometimes the actual override/push people around part is a useful signal in its own right too, if done skillfully.
That’s the part that’s really hard to communicate in a soundbite, or really to communicate verbally at all.
Especially since ‘do exactly the same thing but be two inches taller’ can completely change the outcome.
Sometimes it is best to just suggest ‘err to the other side to what you are used to’. That makes the difference between what works and what doesn’t much easier to spot so the countless subtle differences in context can be learned more readily.
Or also when the male overrides a clear desire of hers?
With trivial desires it probably applies. With significant desires not so much. The line between the two is probably fuzzy but has obvious extremes. How strongly the woman holds the desire matters too, I suppose. I don’t know if I can say more without context: I don’ t teach people how to be attractive so I’m not good at spelling all the intricacies out. I just know enough to make it work for me.
What if the man takes charge and turns out to be wrong about the outcome?
You’d have to be more specific but I suspect the outcome usually doesn’t matter.
Sorry if I’m piling on.
I don’t think anyone here is saying: “listen to the women, they always know what is best”. Rather people are saying: “Hey men who know what women find attractive, you don’t need to phrase your true advice in such objectionable language.”
Not to bring this back to object level but I’m not sure “ordering them around” actually communicates good advice. There are circumstances where taking charge is attractive but it isn’t nearly as simple as “order them around” and I suspect whatever good advice is here can be phrased in a similarly unobjectionable way.
I wouldn’t go as far as to support the (absolute part of the) first claim but I certainly support the second.
I disagree. Naturally things aren’t simple (simple isn’t a Nash equilibrium in the dating game!) but ‘ordering them around’ is good advice, particularly to those who most need dating advice. That class of guys tends to associate receiving orders with resentment and so tends to have a failure of empathy when it comes to their expectations of how women will react to similar assertions. “Order them around” is what they need to hear while the more abstract “taking charge” crosses too much of an inferential gap.
I’ve seen more than one bit of PUA literature cross this gap by carefully pointing out how behavior X might seem asshole-ish among men, but is in fact perceived as positive quality Y when received by women from men, and further pointing out that it’s an error to assume this means one should act like an asshole in general.
Certainly, I don’t think teaching material should do any less. It’s likely that a properly framed discussion here relating the venusian arts to, say the Dark Arts, advertising, consent, consistent decision theories, etc. would also need to discuss both sides of that perceptual gap, at least in passing. (Albeit without so much detailed how-to info in between.)
That is a good way to teach it, even though it is somewhat of a lie (similar to teaching Newtonian physics). It usually isn’t healthy to teach about things that are actually perceived as a negative quality by women can also give desired results to men. That darker truth is best left until after people have developed their social skills and let go of their tendency to bury their frustration behind a façade of righteous indignation.
Huh? I don’t see the connection between this and what I was talking about.
More explicit:
There are two messages to convey:
Some things you (naive guys) think will be a bad experience for women are actually a good experience, healthy for them and perceived as desirable.
Some things that are absolutely bad, unhealthy and perceived as undesirable by women can also be used to attract them.
The first of these (and the one that you mention) is a better subject of education. The second is a recipe for excuses, passive aggression and bitterness for people who don’t already have an appreciation for the first point.
Yeah, the absolute part made it too strong.
We’re probably being too vague to evaluate this question. I read “order them around” and I picture men doing a lot of things that women probably won’t find very attractive. I suspect it might lead to the audience just trying to be mean to women thinking that will make them attractive. If I knew less about the subject that advice would lead me to do counterproductive things, I think. Language often needs to be tweaked for audiences that don’t understand right away. I might be in the minority when it comes to my interpretation of “ordering them around” but it really isn’t clear to me exactly what behaviors it recommends.
“Order them around” seems to be evocative of “Bitch, make me a sandwich!”
I actually have success (ie we both have fun and build attraction) when using such orders. But I do it playfully and there is a distinct element of counter-signalling involved (we both know I am not a controlling asshole) so how that data point relates to the topic is non-trivial.
Same here. But this is so context based I sort of doubt a bitter near-misogynist who just started reading attraction advice would be able to implement it correctly. In any case if this is the behavior that “order them around” recommends why not say “Women find it attractive when men can confidently joke and be ironic about traditional gender roles without worrying about being offensive.” And then give examples of this behavior and explain the counter-signaling going on.
Yes, counter-signaling is fun.
When orders are given sincerely, they are usually more subtle:
Call me.
Come hang out with us on Friday.
Hold my umbrella for a sec? (the words are an order by the tonality is a question)
Would you hold my drink for a sec. (The words are a question but the tonality is an order)
The purpose of such orders is not to control the other person, it is to signal status.
Another use of orders (and other forms of dominance) is a reactive one, specifically reacting to “bad” or “naughty” female behavior. I put those words in quotes because perception of what is “bad” or “naughty” is somewhat subjective. Anyone experienced with young women (at least in Western culture) knows that some female personality types sometimes engage in behavior with men that could be considered “bratty” or “naughty,” by the standard of general cultural norms. PUAs hypothesize that these women do so consciously or unconsciously as a “test.”
What many people reading about PUA techniques (either critics or newbies) don’t realize is that a lot of the more controversial techniques such as dominance and status tactics are used in a highly contextual way. So these behaviors that wouldn’t be justifiable if dropped out of the blue would be justifiable if done in context, such as the context of responding to a “test.”
I am not completely wedded to the PUA view of when a woman is “testing” or not, and I recognize that false positives in that area could lead to a woman’s perspective being disregarded incorrectly. Yet I do think there are many examples of female “bad”, “bratty”, or “naughty” behavior that are correctly described by the PUA model of testing, and which do require a response. And one type of response can be behavior that would be unacceptable (or “assholish”) in other contexts, such as giving orders or strong negs.
For instance, if a woman has spent the last 10 minutes poking him and the joke has worn off, then a PUA might give her an order like “Hey, stop being such a brat.”
The ethics of dominance behaviors is context-dependent, and one factor in context is whether the other person is engaging in behavior that would be culturally considered to justify that response. Here is an example with neg-like behavior, where Monday night I ended up negging a woman kind of hard, because I perceived it as justified (even though I don’t believe in negging out of the blue):
Her: I’m trying to find N… I am going to tell him something that will make him happy...
Me: You’re the bearer of good news, huh?
Her: Yeah, I’m going to hang out for him with a whole day this weekend! He’s been wanting me to for ages.
[Now, by cultural norms, her behavior is a bit of arrogant. She was signalling that she has higher status that N. Social circles have status hierarchies, but it’s still a bit arrogant to practically come out and say that you are higher status than someone. What she communicated was “I am so much higher status and attractive that another guy in our social circle is lucky to hang out with me… and what’s more, I am so high status and attractive that I can get away with this self-enhancement with you!” So she was indirectly asserting status over me, also. I couldn’t let this assertion of higher status from her go unchallenged.]
Me: Ok, so that’s the bad news you’re bearing… but what’s the good news?
Her: (it took her a sec to get that the joke was on her, then she replied slightly haughtily and petulantly) Hey, I bet you’d be stoked if I spent a day hanging out at your house! [We both know this is true, from our previous interaction, but it’s a status ploy for her to explicitly point this out. My perception that I was seeing a “test” was confirmed. I think her behavior would be intersubjectively considered a bit immature, even by feminists how would normally be skeptical of many male claims of female “bad behavior.”]
Me: That depends… are you tidy?
Her: Yeah, I’m tidy...
Me: Great! Then I would in fact be stoked about you coming over to my house… you could help me tidy up my laundry
Her: You’re a jerk, you know...
Me: Yeah, I know!
Her: (reaches over and rubs my arm. This was a signal of attraction that let me know that I was calibrated correctly, and that she had enjoyed my response to her test. If I had detected that I had actually hurt her feelings by calling her “bad news,” then I would have instead taken steps to make her feel better or even apologized if I was miscalibrated.)
I signalled: “I don’t agree with your assertion of status over our mutual friend N. In fact, I think you are violating the norm of ostensible equality between friends by so nakedly attempting to assert your status. I assert that my status is high enough that I am justified in calling you on this behavior and making fun of you for it by joking that you are “bad news” and lowering your status. I am so high status that I find your attempts at elevating your status above N amusing, implying that I actually view myself as at least as high status as you, not merely trying to act as high status as you. I am not threatened by your status imposition, which is why I feel no need to explicitly call you on it. I am not afraid of your potential negative reaction to my enforcement of this norm; I expect you to take this tease and accept it as a justified response from me. Since you tried to violate the norm and claim status you don’t actually have, you actually lowered your own status, which is why I am justified in raising my status above yours at this time and delivering the status-deflation you deserve. I can tell that you are testing me by seeing if I will let you get away with your status assertion, and the answer is that I won’t. If you attempt such a norm-violating level of self-enhancement in the future, I will quickly and immediately burst your bubble.”
...or something like those things. I consider this a defensive use of status games; I wouldn’t neg a woman this hard if she wasn’t violating a norm and attempting to inflate her status. If I had let her get away with that behavior, then she would think that I thought that she deserved that level of status. She would engage in similar behavior in the future, and keep attempting to raise her status until she eventually considered her status higher than mine. If that happened, then not only would it destroy her attraction to me, but it would also destroy any chance of us having a quality friendship. Soon she would be referring to me as yet another of the guys who would be lucky to hang out with her.
Counter-intuitively, the way to maintain equality in my interaction with her was to engage in a status game, and deflate her status in a way that would not be justified in another context, such as out of the blue. In context, my lowering of her status was a deflation of the excess status that she was trying to claim, which is morally different from attempting to lower someone’s status unprovoked. Notice also that my goal wasn’t to “lower her self-esteem” it was to lower her level of narcissism and illegitimate status assertion.
It is by understanding power that I can achieve equality. Remember, as I mentioned before, a typical mode of social interaction is to try to increase your status incrementally until people stop you (like i stopped her). Unless you confine yourself to a nerd ghetto where people don’t play this sort of status games (and status is decided more by competence than by what you can get away with), you will need to engage in social power dynamics, if only as a defensive measure.
Status behavior (which may include giving orders) in a defensive context is in a different moral category from status behavior in other contexts. I hope this lengthy analysis is useful to someone, and opens their eyes to the fun world of subcommunication. Questions or disagreement is invited.
I really enjoy your writing on this subject, it’s informative and ethically enlightened in a way that most discussion of such topics usually isn’t.
Returning to subject of my parent comment is there any reason this same advice couldn’t be communicated with “use imperative sentences” instead of “order them around”? The former seems both less offensive and less likely to lead to students being controlling (in a way that is poorly calibrated, unattractive and ethically ambiguous). I feel like it’s also worth noting that none of those examples are particularly unusual things to say. Among groups of platonic male heterosexuals of approximately equal status saying these things is totally routine and doesn’t even imply gaming or hidden agendas. The only reason it is meaningful advice for men trying to be more attractive to women is that the default behavior of so many men around women is to put them on a pedestal and start supplicating and self-flagellating. So some feminists are upset that PUAs are telling men to “order women around” when really a lot of the advice actually consists just telling them to treat women like the equals they are (I’ve said it before, treating someone as an equal doesn’t mean being super nice to them and deferring to them when possible). Part of this is probably feminists not looking at the actual advice closely enough, but I don’t think I could blame someone for thinking “order them around” implies something more offensive than “Call Me” (Do PUAs actually use the word “orders”? I don’t recall seeing it anywhere before this thread. The advice is familiar just not the wording.)
In fact, playing a status game with someone isn’t really the power play our language makes it out to be. A lot of time status games are just sort of skirmish played out between equals. The winner doesn’t really come out with significantly higher status, all they really get is something like a tip of the hat from those around them. This why, again returning to platonic male heterosexual relationships, guys can make fun of each other without permanent damage. It’s sort of like practicing, or like the way baby animals rough house. In fact, not only is there no permanent damage, this kind of behavior (at least in my experience, and at least this seems to be the conventional message) makes male heterosexual friendships stronger.
So when a man engages in a status game with a woman in addition to object level status claims like:
there is also sort of a meta-signaling of: “I think you are worthy competition and therefore about equal in status to me.” And like with male heterosexual friendships this kind of thing improves rapport. I actually think such status skirmishes might be quite central to healthy egalitarian relationships.
I agree. I think this element is what made the interaction mutually fun and attractive.
It would be helpful to have been there, to hear the tone throughout the exchange and observe your body language together, but I believe the interaction you describe seems familiar to me.
I agree she was testing you, and the outcome of the test was positive as she indicated by the affectionate body language of touching your arm. However, my interpretation of the test is more straightforward—I’d guess she was just seeking affirmation that you like spending time with her. I’ve often noticed that social norms (like modesty) are relaxed among women with men, especially if the context is flirtation. Also if she was testing you, she might have felt justified in relaxing the norm in order to get a more dependable test result.
I wonder to what extent generally, in male hacking of female social interaction with them, they’re coming up with the correct behaviors with the wrong theories behind them.
I think I would find the “bad news” poke you gave—which, funnily enough, is an aggression I would have incorrectly interpreted as provoked by jealousy rather than a disapproval of her status grab—more coy (and possibly more attractive) than a straight signal that you would be jealous and want her to hang with you. Instead, the counter-punch you gave signaled the desire to be with her without creating a request to contend with. It also seems attractive along the lines of a male acting more stereotypically male in an endearing way (jealous, and not admitting it).
I think you could have also passed the test by a straight signal that you liked hanging with her: “No, don’t hang out with him this weekend. Hang out with me.” In this case, you would also be signaling sincerity and a desire for a relationship, which may or may not have been appropriate for either of you. If you guys are “just friends”, then you could have the same response, but then I would expect you to overdo it a little until there is a laugh / affectionate punch on the arm.
I have more to say in response, but I will clarify one thing: the “bad news” jibe wasn’t implying that it was bad news for me that she was hanging out with him, it was implying that it was bad news for the other guy that she was hanging out with. I think that implication came across, because of her response which was to claim that I would want to hang out with her (which as interpreted as “any guy would want to hang out with me, including you, which is why it’s justified for me to so blatant assert that a guy is lucky to do so”).
I’m not sure if that’s why you interpreted my jibe as displaying jealousy; but if given my intended interpretation, I do agree that it could have subcommunicated jealousy, like a case of “sour grapes” on my part (which is slightly true, though not the primary reason for the jibe).
Yes, this is what I understood.
Only because a jealous response seemed to be expected and solicited. So I predicted she would have interpreted the jibe as a form of sour grapes, as I would have if I was eavesdropping on the conversation. (“You’re going to spend the whole day with him? … Poor him!” is an appropriately funny and defensive jealousy response.) However, from your description of the interaction, I understood that you weren’t actually displaying jealousy and she and I would have been somewhat mistaken about the initial effectiveness of her test. But then it lead to a conversation in which you did signal the desire to be with her, anyway.
I wouldn’t give this advice to a bitter near-misogynist (and don’t have a special interest in advising bitter near-misogynists, that doesn’t usually work all that well anyway). I would give it to ‘good boys’ who are still under the impression that the polite supplication that sometimes works for keeping mommy happy is attractive to female peers. It opens up a whole new world to them.
Because I consider this tangent distinctly different from the original ‘order them around’ discussion. In particular, I don’t think ‘order them around’ implies ‘refer to them as bitches’.
(I didn’t reject ChronoS’ claimed evocation because the tangent is interesting and had no inclination to invalidate his contribution. For the purpose of your attempt to build upon that evocation as a shared premise I do reject it.)
(insert joke about finding someone’s root password here)
All the instantiations I can think of make me laugh out loud. Too true. :)
Thats fine, I was just trying to clarify my initial position.
Edit:… since the disagreement we had seemed too ambiguous to continue discussing.
Also trivial and completely unimportant!
Cool, I didn’t care about it either.
Really? Are we looking at the same forum? Because of all criticisms of PUA discussion, I never saw anything of that form—most importantly, I don’t remember acknowledgement that it is true (just as society in general won’t admit it). Those who found it objectionable, like this characteristic poster, demanded much more serious straitjackets:
That’s way beyond, “hey, use less objectionable language when making these true claims about what women find attractive”. Don’t you think so?
Agree With What You Are Saying But Good Pickup Advice Would Recommend Ignoring That Frame Rather Than Validating It. (AWWYASBGPAWRITFRTVI?)
Sorry, “here” is ambiguous. I meant in the discussion presently occurring, perhaps I should have just said pjeby is only saying that but I felt like my statement applied to everyone who replied to your comments recently.
My position is here. But yes, past discussions involved broader disagreement. I mostly meant that I didn’t think your interpretation of pjeby’s comment was accurate.
(ETA: I’m sympathetic to a lot of what she says but I’m not sure I’d agree alicorn was “characteristic” in that particular discussion.)
I’m wondering about this “taking charge” thing. Does it just apply when the woman isn’t very sure about what she wants? Or also when the male overrides a clear desire of hers? What if the man takes charge and turns out to be wrong about the outcome?
The main context it’s discussed in is situations where no-one has expressed a strong preference. In the case of conflicting preferences, men are advised to be clear and non-deferential regarding their preferences, without necessarily “overriding” anything. The point is to show initiative and non-wishiwashiness, not to push people around.
Then how he handles that is the next test. ;-)
I saw an interesting discussion of the movie “300” that sort of relates to this. Someone said that in almost every action movie, there is a woman who wants the man to stay with her and not go do the dangerous thing that’s his mission in life. But, if he were the sort of man who would stay—who’d, before going off to war against the Persians, would say, “you’re right honey, I should just stay here with you and the kids”—then she wouldn’t have been attracted to him in the first place.
And, if he did change his mind and stay, the attraction and romance in the relationship would pretty much die right away.
So the advice to “take charge” is really just to be the sort of man who doesn’t let a woman talk him into things for the sake of immediate pleasure (or lack of immediate conflict), at the expense of long-term interests. Such a man may be too easily convinced to leave or to cheat by a different woman, and be a lousy protector who won’t do difficult or painful things in his family’s interest.
So, the function of taking charge is that the man must demonstrate that he can tell the difference between what a woman says she wants and what’s actually best in a given situation, as well as his nature as a man of constancy, certainty, and initiative. It’s not really about making decisions, per se.
(For example, some “chivalrous” gestures like opening a door, pulling out a chair, or giving your arm to someone can be forms of “taking charge” in the sense that they show purpose and initiative, even though no decision is really being made, nor are any orders being given.)
That’s fictional evidence—that is, not evidence at all. All I’m sure of is it’s harder to make a movie about the guy who stayed home, though you could do it if trouble came looking for him.
It’s not evidence but it is a good illustration that helps point people to intuitive understanding that they already have.
The person who wrote that was pointing to the fiction to give a point of common reference for his observation of the dynamics between men and women, not using the movie as his evidence.
The author’s observation (and mine) was that women tend to lose respect (and thus attraction) for a man who they can talk into delaying or abandoning things the man says are important to him. The movie version is just that idea writ large.
The initiative and non-wishiwashiness is the most important factor but sometimes the actual override/push people around part is a useful signal in its own right too, if done skillfully.
That’s the part that’s really hard to communicate in a soundbite, or really to communicate verbally at all.
Especially since ‘do exactly the same thing but be two inches taller’ can completely change the outcome.
Sometimes it is best to just suggest ‘err to the other side to what you are used to’. That makes the difference between what works and what doesn’t much easier to spot so the countless subtle differences in context can be learned more readily.
With trivial desires it probably applies. With significant desires not so much. The line between the two is probably fuzzy but has obvious extremes. How strongly the woman holds the desire matters too, I suppose. I don’t know if I can say more without context: I don’ t teach people how to be attractive so I’m not good at spelling all the intricacies out. I just know enough to make it work for me.
You’d have to be more specific but I suspect the outcome usually doesn’t matter.