I really enjoy your writing on this subject, it’s informative and ethically enlightened in a way that most discussion of such topics usually isn’t.
When orders are given sincerely, they are usually more subtle
Call me.
Come hang out with us on Friday.
Hold my umbrella for a sec? (the words are an order by the tonality is a question)
Would you hold my drink for a sec. (The words are a question but the tonality is an order)
Returning to subject of my parent comment is there any reason this same advice couldn’t be communicated with “use imperative sentences” instead of “order them around”? The former seems both less offensive and less likely to lead to students being controlling (in a way that is poorly calibrated, unattractive and ethically ambiguous). I feel like it’s also worth noting that none of those examples are particularly unusual things to say. Among groups of platonic male heterosexuals of approximately equal status saying these things is totally routine and doesn’t even imply gaming or hidden agendas. The only reason it is meaningful advice for men trying to be more attractive to women is that the default behavior of so many men around women is to put them on a pedestal and start supplicating and self-flagellating. So some feminists are upset that PUAs are telling men to “order women around” when really a lot of the advice actually consists just telling them to treat women like the equals they are (I’ve said it before, treating someone as an equal doesn’t mean being super nice to them and deferring to them when possible). Part of this is probably feminists not looking at the actual advice closely enough, but I don’t think I could blame someone for thinking “order them around” implies something more offensive than “Call Me” (Do PUAs actually use the word “orders”? I don’t recall seeing it anywhere before this thread. The advice is familiar just not the wording.)
In fact, playing a status game with someone isn’t really the power play our language makes it out to be. A lot of time status games are just sort of skirmish played out between equals. The winner doesn’t really come out with significantly higher status, all they really get is something like a tip of the hat from those around them. This why, again returning to platonic male heterosexual relationships, guys can make fun of each other without permanent damage. It’s sort of like practicing, or like the way baby animals rough house. In fact, not only is there no permanent damage, this kind of behavior (at least in my experience, and at least this seems to be the conventional message) makes male heterosexual friendships stronger.
So when a man engages in a status game with a woman in addition to object level status claims like:
I assert that my status is high enough that I am justified in calling you on this behavior and making fun of you for it by joking that you are “bad news” and lowering your status. I am so high status that I find your attempts at elevating your status above N amusing, implying that I actually view myself as at least as high status as you, not merely trying to act as high status as you.
there is also sort of a meta-signaling of: “I think you are worthy competition and therefore about equal in status to me.” And like with male heterosexual friendships this kind of thing improves rapport. I actually think such status skirmishes might be quite central to healthy egalitarian relationships.
there is also sort of a meta-signaling of: “I think you are worthy competition and therefore about equal in status to me.” And like with male heterosexual friendships this kind of thing improves rapport. I actually think such status skirmishes might be quite central to healthy egalitarian relationships.
I agree. I think this element is what made the interaction mutually fun and attractive.
I really enjoy your writing on this subject, it’s informative and ethically enlightened in a way that most discussion of such topics usually isn’t.
Returning to subject of my parent comment is there any reason this same advice couldn’t be communicated with “use imperative sentences” instead of “order them around”? The former seems both less offensive and less likely to lead to students being controlling (in a way that is poorly calibrated, unattractive and ethically ambiguous). I feel like it’s also worth noting that none of those examples are particularly unusual things to say. Among groups of platonic male heterosexuals of approximately equal status saying these things is totally routine and doesn’t even imply gaming or hidden agendas. The only reason it is meaningful advice for men trying to be more attractive to women is that the default behavior of so many men around women is to put them on a pedestal and start supplicating and self-flagellating. So some feminists are upset that PUAs are telling men to “order women around” when really a lot of the advice actually consists just telling them to treat women like the equals they are (I’ve said it before, treating someone as an equal doesn’t mean being super nice to them and deferring to them when possible). Part of this is probably feminists not looking at the actual advice closely enough, but I don’t think I could blame someone for thinking “order them around” implies something more offensive than “Call Me” (Do PUAs actually use the word “orders”? I don’t recall seeing it anywhere before this thread. The advice is familiar just not the wording.)
In fact, playing a status game with someone isn’t really the power play our language makes it out to be. A lot of time status games are just sort of skirmish played out between equals. The winner doesn’t really come out with significantly higher status, all they really get is something like a tip of the hat from those around them. This why, again returning to platonic male heterosexual relationships, guys can make fun of each other without permanent damage. It’s sort of like practicing, or like the way baby animals rough house. In fact, not only is there no permanent damage, this kind of behavior (at least in my experience, and at least this seems to be the conventional message) makes male heterosexual friendships stronger.
So when a man engages in a status game with a woman in addition to object level status claims like:
there is also sort of a meta-signaling of: “I think you are worthy competition and therefore about equal in status to me.” And like with male heterosexual friendships this kind of thing improves rapport. I actually think such status skirmishes might be quite central to healthy egalitarian relationships.
I agree. I think this element is what made the interaction mutually fun and attractive.