(That downmod wasn’t me; I recognize when my objectivity on a thread for purposes of modding is compromised.)
Because women make no bones telling men they’re wearing make-up, or had their hair styled, but for a PUA to explain that they are using “negs” specifically to deflate a good-looking woman’s ego would ruin the effect.
Well, actually, women will deny or refuse to talk about a lot of these. How many women actually tell men how much makeup they have on? How much “assistance” their bust has gotten? (ETA: I actually remember an ad campaign, possibly still going on, that encouraged women to lie about their age, because of the effectiveness of the makeup. It was actually phrased in terms of “Don’t like about your age—defy it!”, accompanied by a scene with a woman getting away with lying about her age.)
Also, I’m not sure your claim about negging is as obvious as you suspect. For one thing, how do you differentiate it, morally, from any kind of teasing? Or the negging that naturals do automatically without even knowing the term or the psychological dynamics of it?
This is a case of the general hypothesis “manipulation is the use of techniques that wouldn’t work if their targets knew about them”.
An interesting intermediate case …
That’s interesting. But while you’re wringing your hands about this or that practice, the rest of the world has moved passed this debate and doesn’t adhere to any kind of standard code on those issues. And women are still sleeping with, dating, and marrying those who use PUA techniques, whether they come naturally or not. (Maybe that makes them all rape victims? Who knows?)
And these women and men are making more copies of themselves.
Well, actually, women will deny or refuse to talk about a lot of these. How many women actually tell men how much makeup they have on?
This may be a left-over 1950s stereotype, but I was under the impression that men both want a rather artificial appearance from women and despise women for their attention to the details needed to create it. I would be glad to find out that I’m mistaken.
I was under the impression that men both want a rather artificial appearance from women and despise women for their attention to the details needed to create it. I would be glad to find out that I’m mistaken.
I think it’d be more accurate to say that we prefer any makeup to look like the wearer just naturally looks that way, rather than like they made themselves up. (Since awareness of the makeup detracts from the immediate and visceral pleasure we’d otherwise receive from viewing an attractive woman.)
We also dislike it when the time spent on making up goes past that point of attractiveness, because it suggests that the additional effort is being spent on signaling other women, rather than on being attractive for us. ;-) (Even if a man doesn’t “get” signaling, he knows that the additional effort is both decreasing his enjoyment and eating into the time he will be spending with his date.)
The things that men most widely despise in relation to artificial appearance are not the attention to detail, but rather, the lack of attention to which details men actually prefer. There are fashion trends in makeup and clothing that seem to be beloved by women, but are absolutely hideous to men at large, because they fail to trigger the visual systems that give us pleasure, or do trigger ones that trigger avoidance.
For example, I forget what they’re called, but those tops that make it look like the woman’s waist is just beneath her bust… they make women look pregnant at first glance, no matter how otherwise nice and fashionable the tops may be. Eyebrow treatments that make women look like Ming The Merciless, etc. These are the sort of “details” men tend to despise.
In other words, it’s not that we dislike women’s attention to detail. It’s more that we’re appalled by the amount of time and effort that appears to go into doing things we don’t like.
I would guess that this is probably symmetrical to the things that men spend a lot of time on for women’s sake, that women don’t like either. E.g. bragging about their possessions and accomplishments might be a good example of a place where men try too hard and turn off women in the same way.
For example, I forget what they’re called, but those tops that make it look like the woman’s waist is just beneath her bust… they make women look pregnant at first glance, no matter how otherwise nice and fashionable the tops may be.
Yep, that’s the term. I was more thinking of the lingerie term (babydoll), because my wife owns a lingerie store, works at home in the office next to mine, and I overhear a lot of stuff. (Yes, they make those hideous waistlines in lingerie, too. [shudder])
I think it’d be more accurate to say that we prefer any makeup to look like the wearer just naturally looks that way, rather than like they made themselves up. (Since awareness of the makeup detracts from the immediate and visceral pleasure we’d otherwise receive from viewing an attractive woman.)
I’ve heard about a study (sorry no cite) which found, not only that men think women with light make-up look better, but that those women look more natural.
We also dislike it when the time spent on making up goes past that point of attractiveness, because it suggests that the additional effort is being spent on signaling other women, rather than on being attractive for us. ;-) (Even if a man doesn’t “get” signaling, he knows that the additional effort is both decreasing his enjoyment and eating into the time he will be spending with his date.)
I may not be typical, but it doesn’t feel like working on signaling if (as rarely happens), I fiddle with my appearance. It feels more like trying to get things “right”, like something between an art and a craft.
A goddawful thing I’ve occasionally run into from men is them boasting about how dangerous they are. I really detest it. I don’t know if it turns off all women.
Part of the problem is that I don’t know how to evaluate it for accuracy. This makes it noise (and rather repetitive), not signal.
Furthermore, I’m 4′11″ and not athletic. I haven’t found people to be especially dangerous to me in general, but I make it through my life without needing to be scary.
And I have the irrational impression that those guys are trying to prove that I don’t scare them. Ick.
I mentioned all this to a male friend, and he said that talking about how dangerous one is is normal male chat. If so, I’m glad I’m not stuck with it.
I may not be typical, but it doesn’t feel like working on signaling if (as rarely happens), I fiddle with my appearance. It feels more like trying to get things “right”, like something between an art and a craft.
This data point isn’t terribly relevant to the question of whether signalling is the ‘true’ explanation for your actions—signaling is not in general expected to be a conscious motive for any given action.
A goddawful thing I’ve occasionally run into from men is them boasting about how dangerous they are. I really detest it. I don’t know if it turns off all women.
This would generally be an example of cheap talk rather than signalling. To the extent that women are attracted to ‘dangerous’ men (more accurately men who will be able to defend them and their children from harm and to dominate other men and so provide more resources) they will be attuned to signals that are hard to fake. Boasting is a cheap signal and may well backfire even on targets who are genuinely seeking the advertised quality.
Furthermore, I’m 4′11″ and not athletic. I haven’t found people to be especially dangerous to me in general, but I make it through my life without needing to be scary.
I assume you realize that your experience would likely be different if you were male?
I’ve heard about a study (sorry no cite) which found, not only that men think women with light make-up look better, but that those women look more natural.
You mean, better and more natural than women without any make up? I would guess that’s probably a simple case of the halo effect at work, with “better” creating a halo inclining them to rate higher on “natural”.
I may not be typical, but it doesn’t feel like working on signaling if (as rarely happens), I fiddle with my appearance. It feels more like trying to get things “right”, like something between an art and a craft.
But where does your learning of what’s “right” come from? Don’t women generally learn what’s “right” in this area from other women?
A goddawful thing I’ve occasionally run into from men is them boasting about how dangerous they are. I really detest it. I don’t know if it turns off all women. Part of the problem is that I don’t know how to evaluate it for accuracy. This makes it noise (and rather repetitive), not signal.
The PUA literature says this is true of all forms of male boasting, so presumably you’re far from alone. It’s rather like disinformation—if you want the enemy to believe your fake plans, you have to make the information more costly for them to obtain than just listening to a broadcast announcement. ;-)
And I have the irrational impression that those guys are trying to prove that I don’t scare them. Ick.
Wouldn’t surprise me. Men generally do the stupidest things when trying to prove their bravery, get laid, or both. ;-)
I mentioned all this to a male friend, and he said that talking about how dangerous one is is normal male chat. If so, I’m glad I’m not stuck with it.
It might be more accurate to say that male chat involves posturing about one’s prowess, which might be intellectual rather than physical, depending on one’s circle of friends. (Of course, if you put it that way, “normal” female chat tends to be the same, just less overt, and more about social knowledge and status than individual ability.)
A goddawful thing I’ve occasionally run into from men is them boasting about how dangerous they are. I really detest it. I don’t know if it turns off all women.
I would expect it to, particularly when the boasts are directed to women and not overheard when directed to other men. As you suggest, it isn’t a credible signal and can also seem insecure.
Your comment is non-responsive because I was (mainly) referring to cases where the man doesn’t have advance knowledge of how much make-up the woman was using. In general, women aren’t expected to disclose such a thing to men they’ve just met, and don’t do it voluntarily. Hence why Morendil’s claim
Because women make no bones telling men they’re wearing make-up
is wrong.
Now, regarding your point:
I was under the impression that men both want a rather artificial appearance from women and despise women for their attention to the details needed to create it. I would be glad to find out that I’m mistaken.
Pjeby beat me to it: It’s another case of average vs. marginal. Men might expect women to do a lot to make themselves beautiful, but resent them wasting time on fruitless marginal units of effort when they “look just fine, what’s the fuss?”—especially when it makes them wait, of course. This isn’t a case of impossible expectations.
In terms of being attractive to men, most of the effort spent finding “just the right color” of lipstick or whatever is completely wasted. (I remember a Maddox rant about the different names for indistinguishable lipstick color.) Many a time I’ve been tempted to go up to a woman in the beauty aisle of a store and say, “Ah! That’s it! That’s why men don’t show enough interest in you! Because your make-up is a slightly wrong color! Aha! It makes so much sense now! The mystery is solved!”
Fortunately, even I have enough restraint not to do that. But the point is, most of this effort does not benefit men.
Though I’m obviously atypical, I thought you might be interested in this: One time I met a woman through a group and asked her out. She later confessed on a date that she was caught completely off guard because she was in her nurse scrubs, was tired from having worked a long shift, and hadn’t done anything to look good, and so couldn’t understand why I had been attracted to her.
Of course, I did the stupid thing by explaining it with appeal to the concept of a “beauty invariant” … but that’s about right: I (seem to) know a lot about how physically appealing a woman will be to me on average, even if my first impression is in the lower range. But I don’t know if this is true in general.
Many a time I’ve been tempted to go up to a woman in the beauty aisle of a store and say, “Ah! That’s it! That’s why men don’t show enough interest in you! Because your make-up is a slightly wrong color! Aha! It makes so much sense now! The mystery is solved!”
Men also spend lots of time doing things that are more impressive to their peers than to women. I sometimes wonder if this is part of a price-fixing game of sorts, where both genders work to keep individual attractiveness close to some group mean, in order to prevent all-out, no holds-barred competition for mates.
Perhaps we would expect to see some sort of slogan, promoting group loyalty over individual sexual fitness.… like, oh, I don’t know… “bros before ho’s”? ;-) Women don’t have such a catchy motto, but the same idea is definitely in effect. Otherwise, PUA literature wouldn’t need to teach strategies for the neutralization of jealous friends and giving women plausible reasons to “ditch” their girlfriends.
I think these things are much more symmetrical than you are claiming, and that you’re simply biased towards paying attention to the problems on the male side of the fence, without looking at how the same limits, penalties, stigma, etc. apply on the female side as well.
Men also spend lots of time doing things that are more impressive to their peers than to women. I sometimes wonder if this is part of a price-fixing game of sorts, where both genders work to keep individual attractiveness close to some group mean, in order to prevent all-out, no holds-barred competition for mates.
This is an interesting idea. I’ve observed that while there is a norm among men in mainstream white middle class culture that negatively judges men who put a lot of work into fashion and style, yet PUAs work a lot on their style, and it majorly pays off because it is a large factor in women’s perceptions of male status (and therefore, attractiveness). It is probably a good thing for most men that the average level of style is commonly so low, and men aren’t held to such a high standard for appearance. Yet the cat isn’t quite out of the bag about how much style actually effects women’s attraction, or some process is fixing the price. Knowing how powerful style is, I can’t go back to dressing like a normal guy.
Stored riff: I think mainstream American culture encourages men to go way below the human norm for interest in how they dress. As far as I can tell, the default is for men and women to put approximately equal effort into how they dress.
despise women for their attention to the details needed to create it
Men really despise women for that? I suppose I cannot know the mind of men in general but that attitude sounds both bizarre and a terrible thing to signal if they desire positive attention from women (ie. to get laid).
(That downmod wasn’t me; I recognize when my objectivity on a thread for purposes of modding is compromised.)
Well, actually, women will deny or refuse to talk about a lot of these. How many women actually tell men how much makeup they have on? How much “assistance” their bust has gotten? (ETA: I actually remember an ad campaign, possibly still going on, that encouraged women to lie about their age, because of the effectiveness of the makeup. It was actually phrased in terms of “Don’t like about your age—defy it!”, accompanied by a scene with a woman getting away with lying about her age.)
Also, I’m not sure your claim about negging is as obvious as you suspect. For one thing, how do you differentiate it, morally, from any kind of teasing? Or the negging that naturals do automatically without even knowing the term or the psychological dynamics of it?
That’s interesting. But while you’re wringing your hands about this or that practice, the rest of the world has moved passed this debate and doesn’t adhere to any kind of standard code on those issues. And women are still sleeping with, dating, and marrying those who use PUA techniques, whether they come naturally or not. (Maybe that makes them all rape victims? Who knows?)
And these women and men are making more copies of themselves.
I guess I should get back to the hand-wringing …
This may be a left-over 1950s stereotype, but I was under the impression that men both want a rather artificial appearance from women and despise women for their attention to the details needed to create it. I would be glad to find out that I’m mistaken.
I think it’d be more accurate to say that we prefer any makeup to look like the wearer just naturally looks that way, rather than like they made themselves up. (Since awareness of the makeup detracts from the immediate and visceral pleasure we’d otherwise receive from viewing an attractive woman.)
We also dislike it when the time spent on making up goes past that point of attractiveness, because it suggests that the additional effort is being spent on signaling other women, rather than on being attractive for us. ;-) (Even if a man doesn’t “get” signaling, he knows that the additional effort is both decreasing his enjoyment and eating into the time he will be spending with his date.)
The things that men most widely despise in relation to artificial appearance are not the attention to detail, but rather, the lack of attention to which details men actually prefer. There are fashion trends in makeup and clothing that seem to be beloved by women, but are absolutely hideous to men at large, because they fail to trigger the visual systems that give us pleasure, or do trigger ones that trigger avoidance.
For example, I forget what they’re called, but those tops that make it look like the woman’s waist is just beneath her bust… they make women look pregnant at first glance, no matter how otherwise nice and fashionable the tops may be. Eyebrow treatments that make women look like Ming The Merciless, etc. These are the sort of “details” men tend to despise.
In other words, it’s not that we dislike women’s attention to detail. It’s more that we’re appalled by the amount of time and effort that appears to go into doing things we don’t like.
I would guess that this is probably symmetrical to the things that men spend a lot of time on for women’s sake, that women don’t like either. E.g. bragging about their possessions and accomplishments might be a good example of a place where men try too hard and turn off women in the same way.
You mean an empire waistline?
(I don’t think I’ve ever actually seen one in person, but the description is eerily familiar. ^_^)
Yep, that’s the term. I was more thinking of the lingerie term (babydoll), because my wife owns a lingerie store, works at home in the office next to mine, and I overhear a lot of stuff. (Yes, they make those hideous waistlines in lingerie, too. [shudder])
I’ve heard about a study (sorry no cite) which found, not only that men think women with light make-up look better, but that those women look more natural.
I may not be typical, but it doesn’t feel like working on signaling if (as rarely happens), I fiddle with my appearance. It feels more like trying to get things “right”, like something between an art and a craft.
A goddawful thing I’ve occasionally run into from men is them boasting about how dangerous they are. I really detest it. I don’t know if it turns off all women.
Part of the problem is that I don’t know how to evaluate it for accuracy. This makes it noise (and rather repetitive), not signal.
Furthermore, I’m 4′11″ and not athletic. I haven’t found people to be especially dangerous to me in general, but I make it through my life without needing to be scary.
And I have the irrational impression that those guys are trying to prove that I don’t scare them. Ick.
I mentioned all this to a male friend, and he said that talking about how dangerous one is is normal male chat. If so, I’m glad I’m not stuck with it.
This data point isn’t terribly relevant to the question of whether signalling is the ‘true’ explanation for your actions—signaling is not in general expected to be a conscious motive for any given action.
This would generally be an example of cheap talk rather than signalling. To the extent that women are attracted to ‘dangerous’ men (more accurately men who will be able to defend them and their children from harm and to dominate other men and so provide more resources) they will be attuned to signals that are hard to fake. Boasting is a cheap signal and may well backfire even on targets who are genuinely seeking the advertised quality.
I assume you realize that your experience would likely be different if you were male?
You mean, better and more natural than women without any make up? I would guess that’s probably a simple case of the halo effect at work, with “better” creating a halo inclining them to rate higher on “natural”.
But where does your learning of what’s “right” come from? Don’t women generally learn what’s “right” in this area from other women?
The PUA literature says this is true of all forms of male boasting, so presumably you’re far from alone. It’s rather like disinformation—if you want the enemy to believe your fake plans, you have to make the information more costly for them to obtain than just listening to a broadcast announcement. ;-)
Wouldn’t surprise me. Men generally do the stupidest things when trying to prove their bravery, get laid, or both. ;-)
It might be more accurate to say that male chat involves posturing about one’s prowess, which might be intellectual rather than physical, depending on one’s circle of friends. (Of course, if you put it that way, “normal” female chat tends to be the same, just less overt, and more about social knowledge and status than individual ability.)
I would expect it to, particularly when the boasts are directed to women and not overheard when directed to other men. As you suggest, it isn’t a credible signal and can also seem insecure.
Your comment is non-responsive because I was (mainly) referring to cases where the man doesn’t have advance knowledge of how much make-up the woman was using. In general, women aren’t expected to disclose such a thing to men they’ve just met, and don’t do it voluntarily. Hence why Morendil’s claim
is wrong.
Now, regarding your point:
Pjeby beat me to it: It’s another case of average vs. marginal. Men might expect women to do a lot to make themselves beautiful, but resent them wasting time on fruitless marginal units of effort when they “look just fine, what’s the fuss?”—especially when it makes them wait, of course. This isn’t a case of impossible expectations.
In terms of being attractive to men, most of the effort spent finding “just the right color” of lipstick or whatever is completely wasted. (I remember a Maddox rant about the different names for indistinguishable lipstick color.) Many a time I’ve been tempted to go up to a woman in the beauty aisle of a store and say, “Ah! That’s it! That’s why men don’t show enough interest in you! Because your make-up is a slightly wrong color! Aha! It makes so much sense now! The mystery is solved!”
Fortunately, even I have enough restraint not to do that. But the point is, most of this effort does not benefit men.
Though I’m obviously atypical, I thought you might be interested in this: One time I met a woman through a group and asked her out. She later confessed on a date that she was caught completely off guard because she was in her nurse scrubs, was tired from having worked a long shift, and hadn’t done anything to look good, and so couldn’t understand why I had been attracted to her.
Of course, I did the stupid thing by explaining it with appeal to the concept of a “beauty invariant” … but that’s about right: I (seem to) know a lot about how physically appealing a woman will be to me on average, even if my first impression is in the lower range. But I don’t know if this is true in general.
Men also spend lots of time doing things that are more impressive to their peers than to women. I sometimes wonder if this is part of a price-fixing game of sorts, where both genders work to keep individual attractiveness close to some group mean, in order to prevent all-out, no holds-barred competition for mates.
Perhaps we would expect to see some sort of slogan, promoting group loyalty over individual sexual fitness.… like, oh, I don’t know… “bros before ho’s”? ;-) Women don’t have such a catchy motto, but the same idea is definitely in effect. Otherwise, PUA literature wouldn’t need to teach strategies for the neutralization of jealous friends and giving women plausible reasons to “ditch” their girlfriends.
I think these things are much more symmetrical than you are claiming, and that you’re simply biased towards paying attention to the problems on the male side of the fence, without looking at how the same limits, penalties, stigma, etc. apply on the female side as well.
pjeby said:
This is an interesting idea. I’ve observed that while there is a norm among men in mainstream white middle class culture that negatively judges men who put a lot of work into fashion and style, yet PUAs work a lot on their style, and it majorly pays off because it is a large factor in women’s perceptions of male status (and therefore, attractiveness). It is probably a good thing for most men that the average level of style is commonly so low, and men aren’t held to such a high standard for appearance. Yet the cat isn’t quite out of the bag about how much style actually effects women’s attraction, or some process is fixing the price. Knowing how powerful style is, I can’t go back to dressing like a normal guy.
Stored riff: I think mainstream American culture encourages men to go way below the human norm for interest in how they dress. As far as I can tell, the default is for men and women to put approximately equal effort into how they dress.
Men really despise women for that? I suppose I cannot know the mind of men in general but that attitude sounds both bizarre and a terrible thing to signal if they desire positive attention from women (ie. to get laid).