I was under the impression that men both want a rather artificial appearance from women and despise women for their attention to the details needed to create it. I would be glad to find out that I’m mistaken.
I think it’d be more accurate to say that we prefer any makeup to look like the wearer just naturally looks that way, rather than like they made themselves up. (Since awareness of the makeup detracts from the immediate and visceral pleasure we’d otherwise receive from viewing an attractive woman.)
We also dislike it when the time spent on making up goes past that point of attractiveness, because it suggests that the additional effort is being spent on signaling other women, rather than on being attractive for us. ;-) (Even if a man doesn’t “get” signaling, he knows that the additional effort is both decreasing his enjoyment and eating into the time he will be spending with his date.)
The things that men most widely despise in relation to artificial appearance are not the attention to detail, but rather, the lack of attention to which details men actually prefer. There are fashion trends in makeup and clothing that seem to be beloved by women, but are absolutely hideous to men at large, because they fail to trigger the visual systems that give us pleasure, or do trigger ones that trigger avoidance.
For example, I forget what they’re called, but those tops that make it look like the woman’s waist is just beneath her bust… they make women look pregnant at first glance, no matter how otherwise nice and fashionable the tops may be. Eyebrow treatments that make women look like Ming The Merciless, etc. These are the sort of “details” men tend to despise.
In other words, it’s not that we dislike women’s attention to detail. It’s more that we’re appalled by the amount of time and effort that appears to go into doing things we don’t like.
I would guess that this is probably symmetrical to the things that men spend a lot of time on for women’s sake, that women don’t like either. E.g. bragging about their possessions and accomplishments might be a good example of a place where men try too hard and turn off women in the same way.
For example, I forget what they’re called, but those tops that make it look like the woman’s waist is just beneath her bust… they make women look pregnant at first glance, no matter how otherwise nice and fashionable the tops may be.
Yep, that’s the term. I was more thinking of the lingerie term (babydoll), because my wife owns a lingerie store, works at home in the office next to mine, and I overhear a lot of stuff. (Yes, they make those hideous waistlines in lingerie, too. [shudder])
I think it’d be more accurate to say that we prefer any makeup to look like the wearer just naturally looks that way, rather than like they made themselves up. (Since awareness of the makeup detracts from the immediate and visceral pleasure we’d otherwise receive from viewing an attractive woman.)
I’ve heard about a study (sorry no cite) which found, not only that men think women with light make-up look better, but that those women look more natural.
We also dislike it when the time spent on making up goes past that point of attractiveness, because it suggests that the additional effort is being spent on signaling other women, rather than on being attractive for us. ;-) (Even if a man doesn’t “get” signaling, he knows that the additional effort is both decreasing his enjoyment and eating into the time he will be spending with his date.)
I may not be typical, but it doesn’t feel like working on signaling if (as rarely happens), I fiddle with my appearance. It feels more like trying to get things “right”, like something between an art and a craft.
A goddawful thing I’ve occasionally run into from men is them boasting about how dangerous they are. I really detest it. I don’t know if it turns off all women.
Part of the problem is that I don’t know how to evaluate it for accuracy. This makes it noise (and rather repetitive), not signal.
Furthermore, I’m 4′11″ and not athletic. I haven’t found people to be especially dangerous to me in general, but I make it through my life without needing to be scary.
And I have the irrational impression that those guys are trying to prove that I don’t scare them. Ick.
I mentioned all this to a male friend, and he said that talking about how dangerous one is is normal male chat. If so, I’m glad I’m not stuck with it.
I may not be typical, but it doesn’t feel like working on signaling if (as rarely happens), I fiddle with my appearance. It feels more like trying to get things “right”, like something between an art and a craft.
This data point isn’t terribly relevant to the question of whether signalling is the ‘true’ explanation for your actions—signaling is not in general expected to be a conscious motive for any given action.
A goddawful thing I’ve occasionally run into from men is them boasting about how dangerous they are. I really detest it. I don’t know if it turns off all women.
This would generally be an example of cheap talk rather than signalling. To the extent that women are attracted to ‘dangerous’ men (more accurately men who will be able to defend them and their children from harm and to dominate other men and so provide more resources) they will be attuned to signals that are hard to fake. Boasting is a cheap signal and may well backfire even on targets who are genuinely seeking the advertised quality.
Furthermore, I’m 4′11″ and not athletic. I haven’t found people to be especially dangerous to me in general, but I make it through my life without needing to be scary.
I assume you realize that your experience would likely be different if you were male?
I’ve heard about a study (sorry no cite) which found, not only that men think women with light make-up look better, but that those women look more natural.
You mean, better and more natural than women without any make up? I would guess that’s probably a simple case of the halo effect at work, with “better” creating a halo inclining them to rate higher on “natural”.
I may not be typical, but it doesn’t feel like working on signaling if (as rarely happens), I fiddle with my appearance. It feels more like trying to get things “right”, like something between an art and a craft.
But where does your learning of what’s “right” come from? Don’t women generally learn what’s “right” in this area from other women?
A goddawful thing I’ve occasionally run into from men is them boasting about how dangerous they are. I really detest it. I don’t know if it turns off all women. Part of the problem is that I don’t know how to evaluate it for accuracy. This makes it noise (and rather repetitive), not signal.
The PUA literature says this is true of all forms of male boasting, so presumably you’re far from alone. It’s rather like disinformation—if you want the enemy to believe your fake plans, you have to make the information more costly for them to obtain than just listening to a broadcast announcement. ;-)
And I have the irrational impression that those guys are trying to prove that I don’t scare them. Ick.
Wouldn’t surprise me. Men generally do the stupidest things when trying to prove their bravery, get laid, or both. ;-)
I mentioned all this to a male friend, and he said that talking about how dangerous one is is normal male chat. If so, I’m glad I’m not stuck with it.
It might be more accurate to say that male chat involves posturing about one’s prowess, which might be intellectual rather than physical, depending on one’s circle of friends. (Of course, if you put it that way, “normal” female chat tends to be the same, just less overt, and more about social knowledge and status than individual ability.)
A goddawful thing I’ve occasionally run into from men is them boasting about how dangerous they are. I really detest it. I don’t know if it turns off all women.
I would expect it to, particularly when the boasts are directed to women and not overheard when directed to other men. As you suggest, it isn’t a credible signal and can also seem insecure.
I think it’d be more accurate to say that we prefer any makeup to look like the wearer just naturally looks that way, rather than like they made themselves up. (Since awareness of the makeup detracts from the immediate and visceral pleasure we’d otherwise receive from viewing an attractive woman.)
We also dislike it when the time spent on making up goes past that point of attractiveness, because it suggests that the additional effort is being spent on signaling other women, rather than on being attractive for us. ;-) (Even if a man doesn’t “get” signaling, he knows that the additional effort is both decreasing his enjoyment and eating into the time he will be spending with his date.)
The things that men most widely despise in relation to artificial appearance are not the attention to detail, but rather, the lack of attention to which details men actually prefer. There are fashion trends in makeup and clothing that seem to be beloved by women, but are absolutely hideous to men at large, because they fail to trigger the visual systems that give us pleasure, or do trigger ones that trigger avoidance.
For example, I forget what they’re called, but those tops that make it look like the woman’s waist is just beneath her bust… they make women look pregnant at first glance, no matter how otherwise nice and fashionable the tops may be. Eyebrow treatments that make women look like Ming The Merciless, etc. These are the sort of “details” men tend to despise.
In other words, it’s not that we dislike women’s attention to detail. It’s more that we’re appalled by the amount of time and effort that appears to go into doing things we don’t like.
I would guess that this is probably symmetrical to the things that men spend a lot of time on for women’s sake, that women don’t like either. E.g. bragging about their possessions and accomplishments might be a good example of a place where men try too hard and turn off women in the same way.
You mean an empire waistline?
(I don’t think I’ve ever actually seen one in person, but the description is eerily familiar. ^_^)
Yep, that’s the term. I was more thinking of the lingerie term (babydoll), because my wife owns a lingerie store, works at home in the office next to mine, and I overhear a lot of stuff. (Yes, they make those hideous waistlines in lingerie, too. [shudder])
I’ve heard about a study (sorry no cite) which found, not only that men think women with light make-up look better, but that those women look more natural.
I may not be typical, but it doesn’t feel like working on signaling if (as rarely happens), I fiddle with my appearance. It feels more like trying to get things “right”, like something between an art and a craft.
A goddawful thing I’ve occasionally run into from men is them boasting about how dangerous they are. I really detest it. I don’t know if it turns off all women.
Part of the problem is that I don’t know how to evaluate it for accuracy. This makes it noise (and rather repetitive), not signal.
Furthermore, I’m 4′11″ and not athletic. I haven’t found people to be especially dangerous to me in general, but I make it through my life without needing to be scary.
And I have the irrational impression that those guys are trying to prove that I don’t scare them. Ick.
I mentioned all this to a male friend, and he said that talking about how dangerous one is is normal male chat. If so, I’m glad I’m not stuck with it.
This data point isn’t terribly relevant to the question of whether signalling is the ‘true’ explanation for your actions—signaling is not in general expected to be a conscious motive for any given action.
This would generally be an example of cheap talk rather than signalling. To the extent that women are attracted to ‘dangerous’ men (more accurately men who will be able to defend them and their children from harm and to dominate other men and so provide more resources) they will be attuned to signals that are hard to fake. Boasting is a cheap signal and may well backfire even on targets who are genuinely seeking the advertised quality.
I assume you realize that your experience would likely be different if you were male?
You mean, better and more natural than women without any make up? I would guess that’s probably a simple case of the halo effect at work, with “better” creating a halo inclining them to rate higher on “natural”.
But where does your learning of what’s “right” come from? Don’t women generally learn what’s “right” in this area from other women?
The PUA literature says this is true of all forms of male boasting, so presumably you’re far from alone. It’s rather like disinformation—if you want the enemy to believe your fake plans, you have to make the information more costly for them to obtain than just listening to a broadcast announcement. ;-)
Wouldn’t surprise me. Men generally do the stupidest things when trying to prove their bravery, get laid, or both. ;-)
It might be more accurate to say that male chat involves posturing about one’s prowess, which might be intellectual rather than physical, depending on one’s circle of friends. (Of course, if you put it that way, “normal” female chat tends to be the same, just less overt, and more about social knowledge and status than individual ability.)
I would expect it to, particularly when the boasts are directed to women and not overheard when directed to other men. As you suggest, it isn’t a credible signal and can also seem insecure.