I’m interested in figuring out more what’s going on here—how do you feel about emailing me, hashing out the privacy issues, and, if we can get them hashed out, you telling me the four people you’re thinking of who had psychotic episodes?
Update: I interviewed many of the people involved and feel like I understand the situation better.
My main conclusion is that I was wrong about Michael making people psychotic. Everyone I talked to had some other risk factor, like a preexisting family or personal history, or took recreational drugs at doses that would explain their psychotic episodes.
Michael has a tendency to befriend people with high trait psychoticism and heavy drug use, and often has strong opinions on their treatment, which explains why he is often very close to people and very noticeable at the moment they become psychotic. But aside from one case where he recommended someone take a drug that made a bad situation slightly worse, and the general Berkeley rationalist scene that he (and I and everyone else here) is a part of having lots of crazy ideas that are psychologically stressful, I no longer think he is a major cause.
While interviewing the people involved, I did get some additional reasons to worry that he uses cult-y high-pressure recruitment tactics on people he wants things from, in ways that make me continue to be nervous about the effect he *could* have on people. But the original claim I made that I knew of specific cases of psychosis which he substantially helped precipitate turned out to be wrong, and I apologize to him and to Jessica. Jessica’s later post https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/pQGFeKvjydztpgnsY/occupational-infohazards explained in more detail what happened to her, including the role of MIRI and of Michael and his friends, and everything she said there matches what I found too. Insofar as anything I wrote above produces impressions that differs from her explanation, assume that she is right and I am wrong.
Since the interviews involve a lot of private people’s private details, I won’t be posting anything more substantial than this publicly without a lot of thoughts and discussion. If for some reason this is important to you, let me know and I can send you a more detailed summary of my thoughts.
I’m deliberately leaving this comment in this obscure place for now while I talk to Michael and Jessica about whether they would prefer a more public apology that also brings all of this back to people’s attention again.
I want to summarize what’s happened from the point of view of a long time MIRI donor and supporter:
My primary takeaway of the original post was that MIRI/CFAR had cultish social dynamics, that this lead to the spread of short term AI timelines in excess of the evidence, and that voices such as Vassar’s were marginalized (because listening to other arguments would cause them to “downvote Eliezer in his head”). The actual important parts of this whole story are a) the rationalistic health of these organizations, b) the (possibly improper) memetic spread of the short timelines narrative.
It has been months since the OP, but my recollection is that Jessica posted this memoir, got a ton of upvotes, then you posted your comment claiming that being around Vassar induced psychosis, the karma on Jessica’s post dropped in half while your comment that Vassar had magical psychosis inducing powers is currently sitting at almost five and a half times the karma of the OP. At this point, things became mostly derailed into psychodrama about Vassar, drugs, whether transgender people have higher rates of psychosis, et cetera, instead of discussion about the health of these organizations and how short AI timelines came to be the dominant assumption in this community.
I do not actually care about the Vassar matter per say. I think you should try to make amends with him and Jessica, and I trust that you will attempt to do so. But all the personal drama is inconsequential next to the question of whether MIRI and CFAR have good epistemics and how the short timelines meme became widely believed. I would ask that any amends you try to make also address that your comment also derailed these very vital discussions.
Thanks so much for talking to the folks involved and writing this note on your conclusions, I really appreciate that someone did this (who I trust to actually try to find out what happened and report their conclusions accurately).
My main conclusion is that I was wrong about Michael making people psychotic.
...
Michael has a tendency to befriend people with high trait psychoticism and heavy drug use, and often has strong opinions on their treatment, which explains why he is often very close to people and very noticeable at the moment they become psychotic.
This does not contradict “Michael making people psychotic”. A bad therapist is not excused by the fact that his patients were already sick when they came to him.
Disclaimer: I do not know any of the people involved and have had no personal dealings with any of them.
Thanks for this.
I’m interested in figuring out more what’s going on here—how do you feel about emailing me, hashing out the privacy issues, and, if we can get them hashed out, you telling me the four people you’re thinking of who had psychotic episodes?
Update: I interviewed many of the people involved and feel like I understand the situation better.
My main conclusion is that I was wrong about Michael making people psychotic. Everyone I talked to had some other risk factor, like a preexisting family or personal history, or took recreational drugs at doses that would explain their psychotic episodes.
Michael has a tendency to befriend people with high trait psychoticism and heavy drug use, and often has strong opinions on their treatment, which explains why he is often very close to people and very noticeable at the moment they become psychotic. But aside from one case where he recommended someone take a drug that made a bad situation slightly worse, and the general Berkeley rationalist scene that he (and I and everyone else here) is a part of having lots of crazy ideas that are psychologically stressful, I no longer think he is a major cause.
While interviewing the people involved, I did get some additional reasons to worry that he uses cult-y high-pressure recruitment tactics on people he wants things from, in ways that make me continue to be nervous about the effect he *could* have on people. But the original claim I made that I knew of specific cases of psychosis which he substantially helped precipitate turned out to be wrong, and I apologize to him and to Jessica. Jessica’s later post https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/pQGFeKvjydztpgnsY/occupational-infohazards explained in more detail what happened to her, including the role of MIRI and of Michael and his friends, and everything she said there matches what I found too. Insofar as anything I wrote above produces impressions that differs from her explanation, assume that she is right and I am wrong.
Since the interviews involve a lot of private people’s private details, I won’t be posting anything more substantial than this publicly without a lot of thoughts and discussion. If for some reason this is important to you, let me know and I can send you a more detailed summary of my thoughts.
I’m deliberately leaving this comment in this obscure place for now while I talk to Michael and Jessica about whether they would prefer a more public apology that also brings all of this back to people’s attention again.
I want to summarize what’s happened from the point of view of a long time MIRI donor and supporter:
My primary takeaway of the original post was that MIRI/CFAR had cultish social dynamics, that this lead to the spread of short term AI timelines in excess of the evidence, and that voices such as Vassar’s were marginalized (because listening to other arguments would cause them to “downvote Eliezer in his head”). The actual important parts of this whole story are a) the rationalistic health of these organizations, b) the (possibly improper) memetic spread of the short timelines narrative.
It has been months since the OP, but my recollection is that Jessica posted this memoir, got a ton of upvotes, then you posted your comment claiming that being around Vassar induced psychosis, the karma on Jessica’s post dropped in half while your comment that Vassar had magical psychosis inducing powers is currently sitting at almost five and a half times the karma of the OP. At this point, things became mostly derailed into psychodrama about Vassar, drugs, whether transgender people have higher rates of psychosis, et cetera, instead of discussion about the health of these organizations and how short AI timelines came to be the dominant assumption in this community.
I do not actually care about the Vassar matter per say. I think you should try to make amends with him and Jessica, and I trust that you will attempt to do so. But all the personal drama is inconsequential next to the question of whether MIRI and CFAR have good epistemics and how the short timelines meme became widely believed. I would ask that any amends you try to make also address that your comment also derailed these very vital discussions.
Thanks so much for talking to the folks involved and writing this note on your conclusions, I really appreciate that someone did this (who I trust to actually try to find out what happened and report their conclusions accurately).
...
This does not contradict “Michael making people psychotic”. A bad therapist is not excused by the fact that his patients were already sick when they came to him.
Disclaimer: I do not know any of the people involved and have had no personal dealings with any of them.