I like this clarification. Thank you. I think I mostly just agree.
A nuance I find helpful for one piece:
Some version of civility and/or friendliness and/or a spirit of camaraderie and goodwill seems like a useful ingredient in many discussions. I’m not sure how best to achieve this in ways that are emotionally honest (“pretending to be cheerful and warm when you don’t feel that way” sounds like the wrong move to me), or how to achieve this without steering away from candor, openness, “realness”, etc.
I think the core thing here is same-sidedness.
That has nothing to do directly with being friendly/civil/etc., although it’ll probably naturally result in friendliness/etc.
(Like you seem to, I think aiming for cheerfulness/warmth/etc. is rather a bad idea.)
If you & I are arguing but there’s a common-knowledge undercurrent of same-sidedness, then even impassioned and cutting remarks are pretty easy to take in stride. “No, you’re being stupid here, this is what we’ve got to attend to” doesn’t get taken as an actual personal attack because the underlying feeling is of cooperation. Not totally unlike when affectionate friends say things like “You’re such a jerk.”
This is totally different from creating comfort. I think lots of folk get this one confused. Your comfort is none of my business, and vice versa. If I can keep that straight while coming from a same-sided POV, and if you do something similar, then it’s easy to argue and listen both in good faith.
This is totally different from creating comfort. I think lots of folk get this one confused. Your comfort is none of my business, and vice versa. If I can keep that straight while coming from a same-sided POV, and if you do something similar, then it’s easy to argue and listen both in good faith.
I agree that same-sidedness and comfort are totally different things, and I really appreciate the bluntness of same-sidedness as a term. I I also think you are undervaluing comfort here. People who are not comfortable do not reveal their true beliefs; same-sidedness doesn’t appear to resolve this problem because people who are not comfortable do not reveal their true beliefs even to themselves.
The converse of this is that the maximally charitable approach can be harmful when the interlocutor is fundamentally not on the same side as you, in trying to honestly discuss a topic and arrive at truth. I’ve seen people tie themselves in knots when trying to apply the principle of charity, when the most parsimonious explanation is that the other side is not engaging in good faith, and shouldn’t be treated as such.
It’s taken me a long time to internalise this, because my instinct is to take what people say at face value. But its important to remember that sometimes there isn’t anything complex or nuanced going on, people can just lie.
I like this clarification. Thank you. I think I mostly just agree.
A nuance I find helpful for one piece:
I think the core thing here is same-sidedness.
That has nothing to do directly with being friendly/civil/etc., although it’ll probably naturally result in friendliness/etc.
(Like you seem to, I think aiming for cheerfulness/warmth/etc. is rather a bad idea.)
If you & I are arguing but there’s a common-knowledge undercurrent of same-sidedness, then even impassioned and cutting remarks are pretty easy to take in stride. “No, you’re being stupid here, this is what we’ve got to attend to” doesn’t get taken as an actual personal attack because the underlying feeling is of cooperation. Not totally unlike when affectionate friends say things like “You’re such a jerk.”
This is totally different from creating comfort. I think lots of folk get this one confused. Your comfort is none of my business, and vice versa. If I can keep that straight while coming from a same-sided POV, and if you do something similar, then it’s easy to argue and listen both in good faith.
I agree that same-sidedness and comfort are totally different things, and I really appreciate the bluntness of same-sidedness as a term. I I also think you are undervaluing comfort here. People who are not comfortable do not reveal their true beliefs; same-sidedness doesn’t appear to resolve this problem because people who are not comfortable do not reveal their true beliefs even to themselves.
The converse of this is that the maximally charitable approach can be harmful when the interlocutor is fundamentally not on the same side as you, in trying to honestly discuss a topic and arrive at truth. I’ve seen people tie themselves in knots when trying to apply the principle of charity, when the most parsimonious explanation is that the other side is not engaging in good faith, and shouldn’t be treated as such.
It’s taken me a long time to internalise this, because my instinct is to take what people say at face value. But its important to remember that sometimes there isn’t anything complex or nuanced going on, people can just lie.