I sometimes have thoughts of suicide. That does not mean I would ever come within a mile of committing the act of suicide. But my brain does simulate it; though I do try to always reduce such thoughts.
But what I have noticed is that ‘suicide’ is triggered in my mind whenever I think of some embarrassing event, real or imagined. Or an event in which I’m obviously a low-status actor.
(With the qualification that I don’t know you or how you think and that I am not a mental health professional) I think it’s probably important to tell you that in the mental health world this is called “suicidal ideation” and is a glaring sign of clinical depression. The reason you think these thoughts more when you are embarrassed or feel low-status is more likely that those things make you feel particularly bad about yourself than that you brain is trying to give you a way to improve your status. Imagining loved ones saying nice things about you is probably self-comforting, but not especially accurate as a measure of status.
I really think you should go talk to someone about this.
Pointing out that something is a big symptom of depression is not the same as diagnosing someone with depression. And if there’s a decent chance that Stabilizer is actually depressed and doesn’t know it, pointing it out is useful. Jack seems to only be recommending that Stabilizer see a professional, and, internet or no, the decision of whether or not to see a professional is going to be made by non-professionals.
The range of suicidal ideation varies greatly from fleeting to detailed planning, role playing, self-harm and unsuccessful attempts.
Planning, role-playing, self-harm, and attempts would each be sufficient. Thinking of suicide without planning is not sufficient, even when such thoughts include the prerequisites.
That said, if you’re unsure about whether you are planning suicide, seeking help is warranted.
I don’t know where you think you’re getting this from but it’s wrong. Thinking of suicide without planning is sufficient in every definition I have ever seen and every definition I can find online. There is a typical distinction between active ideation and passive ideation, where the former includes planning—perhaps that is your confusion. Or perhaps you think a person with suicidal ideation must be suicidal; that isn’t the case.
Mental thoughts and images which hinge around committing suicide.
McGraw-Hill Concise Dictionary of Modern Medicine
recurring thoughts of or preoccupation with suicide
Miller-Keane Encyclopedia and Dictionary of Medicine, Nursing, and Allied Health
Planning is definitely not necessary—as the term is often specifically opposed to planning. E.g. One of the DSM criteria for “Major Depressive Episode” is ” recurrent suicidal ideation without a specific plan”.
If suicidal ideation is a sign of clinical depression, does that mean that we can take the contrapositive and say that healthy people think about suicide very infrequently? I guess I understand that it’s not meant to be read as a pure logic statement, but is there room to talk about suicide without that “maybe get help plz” disclaimer? Does this mean that healthy people can participate in a discussion about suicide on an internet thread and put it out of their heads immediately?
I posted something about suicide on a personal journal (actually in response to this happy whale article) and had a well-meaning friend ask me if “I was okay” in this weird perfunctory way. Because her question wasn’t really enough to do any good if I wasn’t. Confuzzled!
I guess I understand that it’s not meant to be read as a pure logic statement, but is there room to talk about suicide without that “maybe get help plz” disclaimer?
The room to talk completely openly about the topic isn’t a public forum that people who google suicide might find.
In my time as forum moderator those people who threatened their own suicide usually weren’t established members but people who joined the forum specifically for that purpose.
It extremly emotionally challenging to have someone who first writes that they want to kill themselves and then writes that they drunk some poision. Do you try to contact some local authority in some Austrialian town and give them the IP address to handle the issue? Do you write some relative that you determined by looking at that persons facebook page that you got because they registered with their email address?
The best way to escape such issues is to try to convince the person to seek help. Better deal with the issue at an early stage than having to deal with it at a more explicit stage.
I posted something about suicide on a personal journal (actually in response to this happy whale article) and had a well-meaning friend ask me if “I was okay” in this weird perfunctory way. Because her question wasn’t really enough to do any good if I wasn’t.
If you weren’t okay that question might have lead to a discussion with your friend. That discussion might have helped you.
Okay, that is definitely a very good point. I understand that few people are equipped to deal with the reality of suicide and I agree that having a discussion in a public forum is unsettling to a lot of people. I wouldn’t want to discuss things with people that they are disturbed by. I also understand the functionality of the disclaimer. I think what I wanted to point out is that people who are prepared to have a discussion need to do a bit of extra work to advertise that they are open for the discussion after the disclaimer if by default we want to assume the everyone else would not want to handle such a discussion (because we wouldn’t want to inadvertently disturb people). It would be great if those spaces existed.
If you weren’t okay that question might have lead to a discussion with your friend. That discussion might have helped you.
That was kind of my point about the weirdness of the whole thing. She didn’t ask because she was sincerely prepared to help in any meaningful way and I know her well enough to know that it’s something she couldn’t handle. It was her misleading way of issuing that same disclaimer. If she was talking to someone else, they might have misinterpreted her completely.
I guess my general point is … uhh, social things are misleading and weird.
I think what I wanted to point out is that people who are prepared to have a discussion need to do a bit of extra work to advertise that they are open for the discussion after the disclaimer
The default internet disclaimer is to tell the person to seek professional help. If you don’t have health insurance and can’t speak to get an appointment with a psychologists there are services such as the Suicide Prevention Lifeline that you can call in the US under 1-800-273-8255.
It was her misleading way of issuing that same disclaimer. If she was talking to someone else, they might have misinterpreted her completely.
If she generally doesn’t feel good about having a discussion but would be willing to have a discussion if a life is at stake than it makes sense to word the disclaimer in a way where someone who’s seriously thinking about suicide sees that she addresses the issue but someone who isn’t seriously thinking about it, thinks it’s a casual remark.
If suicidal ideation is a sign of clinical depression, does that mean that we can take the contrapositive and say that healthy people think about suicide very infrequently?
Sure, probabilisticly: healthy people probably think about suicide much less, on average. There are exceptions, obviously.
but is there room to talk about suicide without that “maybe get help plz” disclaimer?
Talking about suicide is not at all the same as suicidal ideation. Also, I’m not at all averse to this discussion. A disclaimer doesn’t prohibit a conversation.
I guess that makes sense. I’ve either always interpreted those as conversation stoppers or they’ve actually been conversations stoppers in other situations I’ve observed them.
It’s still weird to me to think that it’s somehow “normal” to come away from conversations like this and not think about them later.
Talking about suicide is not at all the same as suicidal ideation.
Talking about suicide implies thoughts about suicide, and the definition of suicidal ideation Vaniver quoted says such thoughts demonstrate suicidal ideation. If so, talking about suicide implies suicidal ideation.
There are narrower definitions of suicidal ideation (e.g. the two you cited earlier) but I worry that broad definitions like Wikipedia’s prime people to interpret discussion about suicide in general as a reliable sign of suicidal ideation or being mentally unbalanced. jooyous might have a similar concern.
(I’m not saying you’re doing that in this case. Someone mentally simulating suicide on an ongoing basis clearly is engaging in suicidal ideation.)
In the mental health settings where I’ve worked, there are lots of variations on this theme.
Suicidal ideation: thinking about killing yourself.
Passive suicidal ideation: thinking it would be good if you died, but not by your own action.
Intent: wanting to kill yourself. Plan: having a way you want to do it.
Means: you have access to the way you plan to do it.
Ideation itself is one indicator of depression. Having several of these would be an indicator of more immediate danger.
The reason you think these thoughts more when you are embarrassed or feel low-status is more likely that those things make you feel particularly bad about yourself than that you brain is trying to give you a way to improve your status.
(With the qualification that I don’t know you or how you think and that I am not a mental health professional) I think it’s probably important to tell you that in the mental health world this is called “suicidal ideation” and is a glaring sign of clinical depression. The reason you think these thoughts more when you are embarrassed or feel low-status is more likely that those things make you feel particularly bad about yourself than that you brain is trying to give you a way to improve your status. Imagining loved ones saying nice things about you is probably self-comforting, but not especially accurate as a measure of status.
I really think you should go talk to someone about this.
I think diagnosing over the internet is a bad idea.
Pointing out that something is a big symptom of depression is not the same as diagnosing someone with depression. And if there’s a decent chance that Stabilizer is actually depressed and doesn’t know it, pointing it out is useful. Jack seems to only be recommending that Stabilizer see a professional, and, internet or no, the decision of whether or not to see a professional is going to be made by non-professionals.
Self-described ‘Having thought of suicide’ is not sufficient for the symptom ‘suicidal ideation’.
From wiki. What else do you think is necessary?
Planning, role-playing, self-harm, and attempts would each be sufficient. Thinking of suicide without planning is not sufficient, even when such thoughts include the prerequisites.
That said, if you’re unsure about whether you are planning suicide, seeking help is warranted.
I don’t know where you think you’re getting this from but it’s wrong. Thinking of suicide without planning is sufficient in every definition I have ever seen and every definition I can find online. There is a typical distinction between active ideation and passive ideation, where the former includes planning—perhaps that is your confusion. Or perhaps you think a person with suicidal ideation must be suicidal; that isn’t the case.
McGraw-Hill Concise Dictionary of Modern Medicine
Miller-Keane Encyclopedia and Dictionary of Medicine, Nursing, and Allied Health
Planning is definitely not necessary—as the term is often specifically opposed to planning. E.g. One of the DSM criteria for “Major Depressive Episode” is ” recurrent suicidal ideation without a specific plan”.
If suicidal ideation is a sign of clinical depression, does that mean that we can take the contrapositive and say that healthy people think about suicide very infrequently? I guess I understand that it’s not meant to be read as a pure logic statement, but is there room to talk about suicide without that “maybe get help plz” disclaimer? Does this mean that healthy people can participate in a discussion about suicide on an internet thread and put it out of their heads immediately?
I posted something about suicide on a personal journal (actually in response to this happy whale article) and had a well-meaning friend ask me if “I was okay” in this weird perfunctory way. Because her question wasn’t really enough to do any good if I wasn’t. Confuzzled!
The room to talk completely openly about the topic isn’t a public forum that people who google suicide might find. In my time as forum moderator those people who threatened their own suicide usually weren’t established members but people who joined the forum specifically for that purpose.
It extremly emotionally challenging to have someone who first writes that they want to kill themselves and then writes that they drunk some poision. Do you try to contact some local authority in some Austrialian town and give them the IP address to handle the issue? Do you write some relative that you determined by looking at that persons facebook page that you got because they registered with their email address?
The best way to escape such issues is to try to convince the person to seek help. Better deal with the issue at an early stage than having to deal with it at a more explicit stage.
If you weren’t okay that question might have lead to a discussion with your friend. That discussion might have helped you.
Okay, that is definitely a very good point. I understand that few people are equipped to deal with the reality of suicide and I agree that having a discussion in a public forum is unsettling to a lot of people. I wouldn’t want to discuss things with people that they are disturbed by. I also understand the functionality of the disclaimer. I think what I wanted to point out is that people who are prepared to have a discussion need to do a bit of extra work to advertise that they are open for the discussion after the disclaimer if by default we want to assume the everyone else would not want to handle such a discussion (because we wouldn’t want to inadvertently disturb people). It would be great if those spaces existed.
That was kind of my point about the weirdness of the whole thing. She didn’t ask because she was sincerely prepared to help in any meaningful way and I know her well enough to know that it’s something she couldn’t handle. It was her misleading way of issuing that same disclaimer. If she was talking to someone else, they might have misinterpreted her completely.
I guess my general point is … uhh, social things are misleading and weird.
The default internet disclaimer is to tell the person to seek professional help. If you don’t have health insurance and can’t speak to get an appointment with a psychologists there are services such as the Suicide Prevention Lifeline that you can call in the US under 1-800-273-8255.
If she generally doesn’t feel good about having a discussion but would be willing to have a discussion if a life is at stake than it makes sense to word the disclaimer in a way where someone who’s seriously thinking about suicide sees that she addresses the issue but someone who isn’t seriously thinking about it, thinks it’s a casual remark.
Sure, probabilisticly: healthy people probably think about suicide much less, on average. There are exceptions, obviously.
Talking about suicide is not at all the same as suicidal ideation. Also, I’m not at all averse to this discussion. A disclaimer doesn’t prohibit a conversation.
I guess that makes sense. I’ve either always interpreted those as conversation stoppers or they’ve actually been conversations stoppers in other situations I’ve observed them.
It’s still weird to me to think that it’s somehow “normal” to come away from conversations like this and not think about them later.
Talking about suicide implies thoughts about suicide, and the definition of suicidal ideation Vaniver quoted says such thoughts demonstrate suicidal ideation. If so, talking about suicide implies suicidal ideation.
There are narrower definitions of suicidal ideation (e.g. the two you cited earlier) but I worry that broad definitions like Wikipedia’s prime people to interpret discussion about suicide in general as a reliable sign of suicidal ideation or being mentally unbalanced. jooyous might have a similar concern.
(I’m not saying you’re doing that in this case. Someone mentally simulating suicide on an ongoing basis clearly is engaging in suicidal ideation.)
So someone who volunteers at a suicide hotline regularly automatically meets one criteria for ‘major depressive episode’?
Thinking about other people committing suicide is different from thinking about doing it yourself.
In the mental health settings where I’ve worked, there are lots of variations on this theme.
Suicidal ideation: thinking about killing yourself. Passive suicidal ideation: thinking it would be good if you died, but not by your own action. Intent: wanting to kill yourself. Plan: having a way you want to do it. Means: you have access to the way you plan to do it.
Ideation itself is one indicator of depression. Having several of these would be an indicator of more immediate danger.
I find this particularly well said. The more I look at it, the more this sounds like the optimal way to convey this information in this context.
I think shminux was referring to