Based on my experiences circling, I think these two experiences are much more similar than they might at first appear, and for that reason I use “triggered” (and “trauma”) in a pretty broad way, including to cover things you might describe as being mindkilled.
My tentative hypothesis is that being mindkilled by politics in the way “politics is the mindkiller” was intended to avoid is about being triggered by the possibility of an attack on your tribe, and you don’t need to have had any traumatic experiences of your tribe being attacked to be triggered in this way. Another very familiar example is when a person with anxious-preoccupied attachment gets triggered about their romantic partner leaving them.
They certainly have features in common. I wouldn’t be surprised if they have a common cause. But … so what?
Imagine that someone discovers that two distinct-seeming psychological phenomena—let’s say depression and paranoia—actually have the exact same neurological cause. Too high a ratio of dopamine to serotonin in the left striatal gyrus complex (note: this is deliberate nonsense; I am not at all attempting to describe a realistic or plausible theory here), and people with one sort of brain become depressed and people with another sort become paranoid. People whose brain anatomy is intermediate get a bit of both. In this scenario, depression and paranoia would be “much more similar than they might at first appear”. But would that mean we ought to use the same name for both phenomena?
I say no. We might want to find a name for the single underlying cause, and use it in both cases. But the consequences are different enough that they’re worth distinguishing: depressed people and paranoid people have quite different typical behaviours, after all.
Why isn’t the same true for “triggering” and “mindkilling”? Perhaps there is a lot of common structure; perhaps more than meets the eye. But they feel different from inside (being triggered feels like acute distress, flashbacks, etc.; being mindkilled feels like being Obviously Right while They—those awful people on the Wrong Side—are Disgustingly Wrong), they have different consequences viewed from outside (triggered people get upset; they may go off in a huff, or complain of being abused, or burst into tears; mindkilled people don’t usually do those things, though sometimes they get angry, but they ignore or deflect reasoned criticism and make bogus arguments, which triggered people don’t necessarily do), and I don’t see why we should ignore those differences. Even if it also turns out to be useful to have a word for the common underlying failure mode.
Meta: I am uncomfortable about “Based on my experiences circling …”, which feels like a claim to authority but offers precisely nothing that anyone else can evaluate. Nullis in verba! (For the avoidance of doubt: I’m not saying that circling can’t produce genuine psychological insights; I expect sometimes it does and have no idea what fraction of apparent psychological insights from circling are real. Nor am I saying that you shouldn’t talk about your experiences circling. Just that until such time as it’s demonstrated that “X feels that Y, as a result of their experiences circling” is strong evidence for Y, offering “Based on my experiences circling” as a premise is a sort of logical rudeness: it puts others in the uncomfortable situation of having to choose between accepting something you’ve given them no actual evidence for, and saying things that might offend you by invalidating your experiences.
One thing we take for granted when getting mindkilled in North America is for a lot of people tribal conflicts might be limited to skirmishes on the internet. Being triggered as a result of past trauma is often because of how real the threat posed by the original event was. The experience of someone who has been physically attacked in some way reliving that in their memory probably feels comparatively worse from the inside than how someone feels after their political tribe is attacked. There are a lot of parts of the world, including in North America, where political or tribal conflicts pose more of a threat of facing physical violence, than is typical. The more palpable and probable the threat of facing actual trauma as a consequence of political or tribal conflicts, the more similar I’d expect the experience of becoming ‘mindkilled’ to the experience of being ‘triggered’. If someone were to do this kind of research, one thing to keep in mind in what will determine people’s experience in politics is the perception of likelihood and degree of a threat will vary a lot depending on the person.
which feels like a claim to authority but offers precisely nothing that anyone else can evaluate.
I didn’t intend it that way, I just want people to know where my evidence comes from in case they’re curious about acquiring it too. Would you have preferred that I deleted that phrase?
I thought you quite likely didn’t intend it so. I’m not sure my preferences are what matters—but for what it’s worth I would prefer either (1) just saying what your opinion is, and letting others ask where the opinion comes from if they want, or (2) saying where it comes from in a way that actually shares evidence with others, or at least is explicit about what evidence you’re intending to claim. (So e.g. you could maybe say something about what circling experiences led you to that opinion; or maybe those experiences led you to introspect in an informative way on your own experience of being triggered and/or mindkilled; or maybe they led you to talk with other people in those states about what was happening to them; or, for that matter, maybe it would be more like “While circling, I experienced a sudden rush of conviction that triggering and mindkilling are really the same thing, and now they look just the same to me, though I can’t put my finger on just why”.)
All the options in #2 are substantially more effort than just saying “Based on my experiences circling”, of course. But I think that extra effort may be what it takes to actually provide more information than just stating your opinion would.
While circling, I experienced a sudden rush of conviction
Wanted to respond more fully to this. This is really not how I learn things from circling (not new beliefs, anyway). In the LW frame, circling is an unusually good opportunity to collect training data about how humans respond to other humans in real time; you get to see interactions and probe people’s reactions to those interactions in a way you mostly don’t get to do otherwise.
The repeated experience of seeing a person react in a certain way, then having the circle dive into that reaction and reveal the layers and layers of motivations underneath it (e.g. “I reacted angrily because I was afraid you were attacking me because I hate myself and think I have no redeeming qualities because...”), can teach you a lot (about, among other things, metacognitive blindspots) if you’re open to it, especially if that person is you, in much the same way that you’d learn a lot about businesses by just spending a lot of time watching people run a business, or learn a lot about carpentry by spending a lot of time watching carpenters carp. The learning process I run in circles is the same one I run for learning about anything else from direct experience (and watching experts), it’s just that the substrate on which the learning process acts is unusual levels of detail regarding other humans’ internal experience (so there’s some interesting messing around with meta levels that spices things up, but LW isn’t a stranger to such things).
There’s some stuff that’s hard to communicate verbally about what you can pick up using body language in a circle, but in the same way that it’d be hard to communicate what you learned about dancing by spending a lot of time watching dancers dance. (But, to give an idea of the sort of thing I mean: you can learn to pick up from body language, facial expressions, tone of voice, etc. how deep in the stack of a person’s motivations they’re aware of and talking from. There’s a huge difference between being near the top of the stack and being near the bottom.)
The experiences were generally of the form, person A says a thing, person B responds in a way that sounds like they’re mildly mindkilled / defensive, and the circle dives deeper into that experience until it starts to look more like person B was mildly triggered by what person A said, as the circle gets more clarity about what person B feels like they’re defending themselves from. My sense is that being mindkilled is being mildly triggered without conscious awareness of it, or something.
But back to meta: it feels to me like there’s something weird going on here, like a milder version of what happened in the Kensho and circling threads. Something like the Copenhagen interpretation of ethics, but for epistemics? Like I tried to give an ambiguous partial description of my evidence and that was worse than either no description or a fuller description.
I also don’t feel like I’m trying to get anyone to accept anything. I regard most of what I write on LW about my beliefs as offering hypotheses for people to evaluate however they want, using e.g. the evidence from their own lives. Maybe I’m not signaling this sufficiently well; I’m not sure what to add beyond the “I think” and “my tentative hypothesis” above.
Okay, thinking more, it seems to me like the discomfort has consistently been about explanations that you’re worried that someone else will accord more weight than you think they deserve. Does that sound right?
Edit: also I feel like I (the generic “I,” this is a general observation about the LW epistemic game) am being accorded a weird level of trust. You trust me to accurately report my experiences (as in, I don’t expect you’ll be worried I lied about my description of my circling experiences above) but you don’t trust me to write down accurate partial summaries of why I believe what I believe, or something? I can’t quite pin it down yet.
The description of your circling experiences is much more informative than what you wrote before; thanks very much. I agree that what you describe seems like evidence that in at least some cases mindkilling and triggering share some mechanism, and at least some cases of mindkilling are the result of something very like triggering; again, though, this doesn’t seem like enough reason to treat them as synonyms, not least because what you describe seems perfectly compatible with only some mindkilling being the result of anything triggery.
Meta again: I think the Copenhagen-interpretation thing (slightly related XKCD) is unavoidable: doing a thing makes it possible for people to question or criticize how you did it, whereas not doing a thing is harder to notice. But I think I stand by my opinion that the middle option really is worse than the more extreme ones—of course for different reasons in the two cases. (The “short” option is better because it’s shorter; the “long” option is better because it gives more information; the “middle” option doesn’t get enough benefit for the cost in length, and also has this slightly weird trying-to-advocate-something-controversial vibe about it that may simply be a consequence of the recent Discourse about Circling And All That on LW.)
I don’t think I’m particularly worried that people will give more weight to your opinions than they deserve, no. (If anything, the reverse seems more likely on balance.) And no, I don’t think you’re likely to be lying about why you believe what you do. If I try to unpack my concerns, they’re more like this: It isn’t yet clear (at least to those of us not experienced in such things) to what extent circling produces genuine insight and to what extent it produces pseudo-insight; given that, it’s somehow improper to treat it as if it’s a reliable source of insight; given the general skepticism of the LW readership, treating it as one probably doesn’t make what you say more likely to believed, so that’s not a big concern, but even so it feels like a conversational move that oughtn’t to be be being made; it also has a kinda proselytizing feel to it, a bit like that of a religious convert who insists on telling people that he’s doing whatever-he’s-doing because he knows God wants him to do it. And, finally, if (in this case, or in general) circling really is yielding genuine insights, then you’re missing an opportunity to explain something helpful—an opportunity that in this case you’ve now taken, and as I said above what you say is much more enlightening as a result.
(Perhaps to those more familiar with circling it would have been obvious that that’s the sort of way in which you might have come to the opinion you did: maybe that sort of thing is fairly frequent and other kinds of circling-derived insight—e.g., finding more about one’s own thought processes by introspection in an intense but comfortable context—are much rarer. In which case maybe it’s only for the very ignorant that the more detailed description adds much. But I guess there are quite a lot of the very ignorant among your readers.)
Based on my experiences circling, I think these two experiences are much more similar than they might at first appear, and for that reason I use “triggered” (and “trauma”) in a pretty broad way, including to cover things you might describe as being mindkilled.
My tentative hypothesis is that being mindkilled by politics in the way “politics is the mindkiller” was intended to avoid is about being triggered by the possibility of an attack on your tribe, and you don’t need to have had any traumatic experiences of your tribe being attacked to be triggered in this way. Another very familiar example is when a person with anxious-preoccupied attachment gets triggered about their romantic partner leaving them.
They certainly have features in common. I wouldn’t be surprised if they have a common cause. But … so what?
Imagine that someone discovers that two distinct-seeming psychological phenomena—let’s say depression and paranoia—actually have the exact same neurological cause. Too high a ratio of dopamine to serotonin in the left striatal gyrus complex (note: this is deliberate nonsense; I am not at all attempting to describe a realistic or plausible theory here), and people with one sort of brain become depressed and people with another sort become paranoid. People whose brain anatomy is intermediate get a bit of both. In this scenario, depression and paranoia would be “much more similar than they might at first appear”. But would that mean we ought to use the same name for both phenomena?
I say no. We might want to find a name for the single underlying cause, and use it in both cases. But the consequences are different enough that they’re worth distinguishing: depressed people and paranoid people have quite different typical behaviours, after all.
Why isn’t the same true for “triggering” and “mindkilling”? Perhaps there is a lot of common structure; perhaps more than meets the eye. But they feel different from inside (being triggered feels like acute distress, flashbacks, etc.; being mindkilled feels like being Obviously Right while They—those awful people on the Wrong Side—are Disgustingly Wrong), they have different consequences viewed from outside (triggered people get upset; they may go off in a huff, or complain of being abused, or burst into tears; mindkilled people don’t usually do those things, though sometimes they get angry, but they ignore or deflect reasoned criticism and make bogus arguments, which triggered people don’t necessarily do), and I don’t see why we should ignore those differences. Even if it also turns out to be useful to have a word for the common underlying failure mode.
Meta: I am uncomfortable about “Based on my experiences circling …”, which feels like a claim to authority but offers precisely nothing that anyone else can evaluate. Nullis in verba! (For the avoidance of doubt: I’m not saying that circling can’t produce genuine psychological insights; I expect sometimes it does and have no idea what fraction of apparent psychological insights from circling are real. Nor am I saying that you shouldn’t talk about your experiences circling. Just that until such time as it’s demonstrated that “X feels that Y, as a result of their experiences circling” is strong evidence for Y, offering “Based on my experiences circling” as a premise is a sort of logical rudeness: it puts others in the uncomfortable situation of having to choose between accepting something you’ve given them no actual evidence for, and saying things that might offend you by invalidating your experiences.
One thing we take for granted when getting mindkilled in North America is for a lot of people tribal conflicts might be limited to skirmishes on the internet. Being triggered as a result of past trauma is often because of how real the threat posed by the original event was. The experience of someone who has been physically attacked in some way reliving that in their memory probably feels comparatively worse from the inside than how someone feels after their political tribe is attacked. There are a lot of parts of the world, including in North America, where political or tribal conflicts pose more of a threat of facing physical violence, than is typical. The more palpable and probable the threat of facing actual trauma as a consequence of political or tribal conflicts, the more similar I’d expect the experience of becoming ‘mindkilled’ to the experience of being ‘triggered’. If someone were to do this kind of research, one thing to keep in mind in what will determine people’s experience in politics is the perception of likelihood and degree of a threat will vary a lot depending on the person.
That’s fair.
I didn’t intend it that way, I just want people to know where my evidence comes from in case they’re curious about acquiring it too. Would you have preferred that I deleted that phrase?
I thought you quite likely didn’t intend it so. I’m not sure my preferences are what matters—but for what it’s worth I would prefer either (1) just saying what your opinion is, and letting others ask where the opinion comes from if they want, or (2) saying where it comes from in a way that actually shares evidence with others, or at least is explicit about what evidence you’re intending to claim. (So e.g. you could maybe say something about what circling experiences led you to that opinion; or maybe those experiences led you to introspect in an informative way on your own experience of being triggered and/or mindkilled; or maybe they led you to talk with other people in those states about what was happening to them; or, for that matter, maybe it would be more like “While circling, I experienced a sudden rush of conviction that triggering and mindkilling are really the same thing, and now they look just the same to me, though I can’t put my finger on just why”.)
All the options in #2 are substantially more effort than just saying “Based on my experiences circling”, of course. But I think that extra effort may be what it takes to actually provide more information than just stating your opinion would.
Wanted to respond more fully to this. This is really not how I learn things from circling (not new beliefs, anyway). In the LW frame, circling is an unusually good opportunity to collect training data about how humans respond to other humans in real time; you get to see interactions and probe people’s reactions to those interactions in a way you mostly don’t get to do otherwise.
The repeated experience of seeing a person react in a certain way, then having the circle dive into that reaction and reveal the layers and layers of motivations underneath it (e.g. “I reacted angrily because I was afraid you were attacking me because I hate myself and think I have no redeeming qualities because...”), can teach you a lot (about, among other things, metacognitive blindspots) if you’re open to it, especially if that person is you, in much the same way that you’d learn a lot about businesses by just spending a lot of time watching people run a business, or learn a lot about carpentry by spending a lot of time watching carpenters carp. The learning process I run in circles is the same one I run for learning about anything else from direct experience (and watching experts), it’s just that the substrate on which the learning process acts is unusual levels of detail regarding other humans’ internal experience (so there’s some interesting messing around with meta levels that spices things up, but LW isn’t a stranger to such things).
There’s some stuff that’s hard to communicate verbally about what you can pick up using body language in a circle, but in the same way that it’d be hard to communicate what you learned about dancing by spending a lot of time watching dancers dance. (But, to give an idea of the sort of thing I mean: you can learn to pick up from body language, facial expressions, tone of voice, etc. how deep in the stack of a person’s motivations they’re aware of and talking from. There’s a huge difference between being near the top of the stack and being near the bottom.)
Yup, your other reply made it clear that that guess was a long way off. Thanks for the further clarification.
That’s fair.
The experiences were generally of the form, person A says a thing, person B responds in a way that sounds like they’re mildly mindkilled / defensive, and the circle dives deeper into that experience until it starts to look more like person B was mildly triggered by what person A said, as the circle gets more clarity about what person B feels like they’re defending themselves from. My sense is that being mindkilled is being mildly triggered without conscious awareness of it, or something.
But back to meta: it feels to me like there’s something weird going on here, like a milder version of what happened in the Kensho and circling threads. Something like the Copenhagen interpretation of ethics, but for epistemics? Like I tried to give an ambiguous partial description of my evidence and that was worse than either no description or a fuller description.
I also don’t feel like I’m trying to get anyone to accept anything. I regard most of what I write on LW about my beliefs as offering hypotheses for people to evaluate however they want, using e.g. the evidence from their own lives. Maybe I’m not signaling this sufficiently well; I’m not sure what to add beyond the “I think” and “my tentative hypothesis” above.
Okay, thinking more, it seems to me like the discomfort has consistently been about explanations that you’re worried that someone else will accord more weight than you think they deserve. Does that sound right?
Edit: also I feel like I (the generic “I,” this is a general observation about the LW epistemic game) am being accorded a weird level of trust. You trust me to accurately report my experiences (as in, I don’t expect you’ll be worried I lied about my description of my circling experiences above) but you don’t trust me to write down accurate partial summaries of why I believe what I believe, or something? I can’t quite pin it down yet.
The description of your circling experiences is much more informative than what you wrote before; thanks very much. I agree that what you describe seems like evidence that in at least some cases mindkilling and triggering share some mechanism, and at least some cases of mindkilling are the result of something very like triggering; again, though, this doesn’t seem like enough reason to treat them as synonyms, not least because what you describe seems perfectly compatible with only some mindkilling being the result of anything triggery.
Meta again: I think the Copenhagen-interpretation thing (slightly related XKCD) is unavoidable: doing a thing makes it possible for people to question or criticize how you did it, whereas not doing a thing is harder to notice. But I think I stand by my opinion that the middle option really is worse than the more extreme ones—of course for different reasons in the two cases. (The “short” option is better because it’s shorter; the “long” option is better because it gives more information; the “middle” option doesn’t get enough benefit for the cost in length, and also has this slightly weird trying-to-advocate-something-controversial vibe about it that may simply be a consequence of the recent Discourse about Circling And All That on LW.)
I don’t think I’m particularly worried that people will give more weight to your opinions than they deserve, no. (If anything, the reverse seems more likely on balance.) And no, I don’t think you’re likely to be lying about why you believe what you do. If I try to unpack my concerns, they’re more like this: It isn’t yet clear (at least to those of us not experienced in such things) to what extent circling produces genuine insight and to what extent it produces pseudo-insight; given that, it’s somehow improper to treat it as if it’s a reliable source of insight; given the general skepticism of the LW readership, treating it as one probably doesn’t make what you say more likely to believed, so that’s not a big concern, but even so it feels like a conversational move that oughtn’t to be be being made; it also has a kinda proselytizing feel to it, a bit like that of a religious convert who insists on telling people that he’s doing whatever-he’s-doing because he knows God wants him to do it. And, finally, if (in this case, or in general) circling really is yielding genuine insights, then you’re missing an opportunity to explain something helpful—an opportunity that in this case you’ve now taken, and as I said above what you say is much more enlightening as a result.
(Perhaps to those more familiar with circling it would have been obvious that that’s the sort of way in which you might have come to the opinion you did: maybe that sort of thing is fairly frequent and other kinds of circling-derived insight—e.g., finding more about one’s own thought processes by introspection in an intense but comfortable context—are much rarer. In which case maybe it’s only for the very ignorant that the more detailed description adds much. But I guess there are quite a lot of the very ignorant among your readers.)