This is an excellent objection, and very similar to what I thought when I read the post. Here’s some more thoughts in the same direction.
Let’s say that after diving into the pond to save the child, and ruining all of my clothes in the process (which still don’t add up to $2000; no complete set of clothes I own adds up to that much), the very next day, I am walking across the same pond (in new clothes), and the kid’s drowning again.
So of course I save him again and am out a bunch of money/inconvenience again.
And then the next day another kid’s drowning there.
And the next day.
At this point, most of my clothes are ruined, so I’m pretty upset. But more than that: I’m angry. Who the heck is letting these kids play in the pond? Where are their parents? Shouldn’t someone put up a giant sign that says “DON’T PLAY IN THE POND, YOU IDIOT KIDS”, or a fence, or an electrified fence? Is relying on strangers walking across the pond and ruining their clothes to save these hapless kids really the best solution to this problem? Why am I on the hook for this?
At that point, I might complain to the police, say, or the city government, apprise them of the pond situation, and then go to work by a different route, avoiding the pond henceforth.
The analogy should be clear. There are children whom I can save by donating large sums of money per child to get them mosquito nets? Why am I on the hook for this? This will never end. Are there not more systematic ways of dealing with the whole situation? Some sort of mosquito-net mass production program? Eradicate the mosquitoes somehow? Stop having children?
Essentially, the intuition here is that there is someone, somewhere (possibly many someones in different places), shirking responsibility or otherwise behaving in a morally blameworthy fashion, the consequence of which behavior is kids continually being placed in life-threatening situations, which I ostensibly then have the moral obligation to save them from. Well, the end result of me having a policy of simply going ahead and fulfilling this supposed obligation is that there will always be more kids to save, forever. This does not seem like a positive result for anyone, with the possible exception of the aforementioned obligation-shirkers.
If you make this particular change to the example, then the thing you’re trading off against your new shoes and clothes isn’t “saving a child’s life” but “saving one day of a child’s life”. It’s reasonable to value that rather less (which is not to say that it’s reasonable to value it less than your shoes).
Make it another child (as you do in the next paragraph) and it’s more to the point.
But. Part of the reason why “keep saving these children, one by one, at great personal cost” might not be the right answer is that, as you point out, there are other things that are likely to be more effective and efficient, and other people better placed than you to address the problem, who will probably do so if you let them know.
None of that applies in the case of people dying of malaria in sub-Saharan Africa, so far as I can see. There aren’t obviously better approaches than malaria nets, which is why AMF is allegedly one of the most effective charities in good done per unit cost. And, while there are certainly people better placed to address the problem than you are, just telling them “hey, there are people dying of malaria” probably won’t do much to make them do it.
But. Part of the reason why “keep saving these children, one by one, at great personal cost” might not be the right answer is that, as you point out, there are other things that are likely to be more effective and efficient, and other people better placed than you to address the problem, who will probably do so if you let them know.
None of that applies in the case of people dying of malaria in sub-Saharan Africa, so far as I can see. There aren’t obviously better approaches than malaria nets, which is why AMF is allegedly one of the most effective charities in good done per unit cost. And, while there are certainly people better placed to address the problem than you are, just telling them “hey, there are people dying of malaria” probably won’t do much to make them do it.
It’s not that I think there are more effective solutions to “save these kids from malaria” than AMF, it’s that the problem of “there are kids to be saved from malaria” is continual and open-ended. There will (it seems) always be kids to be saved from malaria, or something or other. The idea that I am morally obligated to keep doing this, forever, is what seems incorrect.
To view it from another perspective: one of the reasons I would save the drowning kid from the pond is that I want to live in a world where if something bad happens to someone, like “oh no, I am drowning in a pond”, nearby people who are able to help, do so, even at some (not entirely unreasonable) one-time expense. However, I don’t want to live in a world where bad things happening to people is just a fact of life, and other people end up having to reduce themselves to pauper status to continually fix the bad things.
Saving the child is a causal step toward the former world. Donating to AMF seems to be a causal step toward the latter world. Show me a way to fix the problem forever, and I might be interested. “Eradicate all the mosquitoes” seems like a possibility (we did it here in the U.S.). “Stop having children” might be another (though I’m not sure what would be the best way to accomplish that).
“Stop having children” might be another (though I’m not sure what would be the best way to accomplish that)
Historically, societies with high child mortality have also had high birthrates. If the demographic transition model is right, letting the child die is likely to encourage a continued high birthrate, and saving the child may lower the birthrate.
As far as I can tell, decline in birth rates is caused by availability of contraception and some other factors related to industrialization and technological growth, not by a lowered death rate per se, which by itself simply leads to population growth. Wikipedia also suggests that the demographic transition model may not apply to less-developed countries with widespread disease (AIDS, bacterial infections) such as many in Africa.
What we should be looking for is ways to discourage people from having children, at all, in places and situations where we expect that the kids are likely to need such outside “saving” as discussed in the OP.
isn’t “saving a child’s life” but “saving one day of a child’s life”.
I try in general to replace the “lives saved” metric with the “QALYs gained” metric for precisely this reason; maximizing lives saved has some very strange properties. (My go-to example is that it leads me to prefer to avoid curing a condition that causes periodic life-threatening seizures, preferring to treat each seizure as it occurs.)
You can get around that particular example by disvaluing lives lost, rather than valuing lives saved. Of course I agree that actually QALYs or something similar are a far better metric.
“None of that applies in the case of people dying of malaria in sub-Saharan Africa, so far as I can see. There aren’t obviously better approaches than malaria nets, which is why AMF is allegedly one of the most effective charities in good done per unit cost. And, while there are certainly people better placed to address the problem than you are, just telling them “hey, there are people dying of malaria” probably won’t do much to make them do it.”
Well, but then the more important question becomes “how can you convince these people to address the problem”.
Not necessarily more important. (If it turns out that actually there isn’t any realistic way to convince them to address the problem, then “ok, so what else can we do?” is a higher-value question.)
Well worth addressing, though, for sure. Getting governments and very rich people to spend more on helping the neediest parts of the world might be a very valuable activity.
Probably hard to know with much confidence. So I suppose the question might be (in so far as this makes sense) objectively unimportant but subjectively important,
Are there not more systematic ways of dealing with the whole situation? Some sort of mosquito-net mass production program? Eradicate the mosquitoes somehow? Stop having children?
It’s more accurate to think of bed nets as one fork of the malaria eradication problem. Since malaria parasites need both primary (mosquitoes) and intermediate hosts (infected humans or other vertebrates) in order to reproduce, anything that breaks transmission of the disease or kills its vectors is also going to help reduce its prevalence, and insecticide-treated netting is one of the more cost-effective ways of doing both; it’s not the only one, but it is simple and parallelizable enough to lend itself to charitable funding. Reading about previous successful eradication efforts might be helpful if you’re interested in vector control more generally.
Last I heard, the AMF and similar organizations were aiming to eliminate malaria in Africa within this decade. That sounds a little ambitious to me, but even if that goal’s not met it’s certainly not the open-ended problem you’re painting it as.
Last I heard, the AMF and similar organizations were aiming to eliminate malaria in Africa within this decade. That sounds a little ambitious to me, but even if that goal’s not met it’s certainly not the open-ended problem you’re painting it as.
If that’s true, I think they absolutely should advertise that fact strongly, as that seems to me to be one of the most persuasive reasons to donate. “You can save a child’s life!” and “We are aiming to fix this problem forever and you can help” are very different.
You’re not “on the hook” or anything of the sort. You’re not morally obligated to save the kids, any more than you’re morally obligated to care about people you care about, or buy lunch from the place you like that’s also cheaper than the other option which you don’t like. But, if you do happen to care about saving children, then you should want to do it. If you don’t, that’s fine; it’s a conditional for a reason. Consequentialism wins the day; take the action that leads most to the world you, personally, want to see. If you really do value the kids more than your clothes though, you should save them, up until the point where you value your clothing more (say it’s your last piece), and then you stop. If you have a better solution to save the kids, then do it. But saying “it’s not my obligation” doesn’t get you to the world you most desire, probably.
Well, unless what you happen to value is discharging your obligations, in which case the whole consequentialist/deontologist divide fades away altogether.
Right, that’s the thought that motivated the “probably” at the end. Although it feels pretty strongly like motivated cognition to actually propose such an argument.
It is tautological, but it’s something you’re ignoring in both this post and the linked reply. If you care about saving children as a part of a complex preference structure, then saving children, all other things being equal, fulfills your preferences more than not saving those children does. Thus, you want to do it. I’m trying to avoid saying you should do it, because I think you’ll read that in the traditional moral framework sense of “you must do this or you are a bad person” or something like that. In reality, there is no such thing as “being a bad person” or “being a good person”, except as individuals or society construct the concepts. Moral obligations don’t exist, period. You don’t have an obligation to save children, but if you prefer children being saved more than you prefer not paying the costs to do so then you don’t need a moral obligation to do it any more than you need a moral obligation to get you to eat lunch at (great and cheap restaurant A) instead of (expensive and bad restaurant B).
Taboo “moral obligation”. No one (important) is telling you that you’re a bad person for not saving the children, or a good person for doing so. You can’t just talk about how you refuse to adopt a rule about always saving children; I agree that would be stupid. No one asked you to do so. If you reach a point (and that can be now) where you care more about the money it would take to save a life than you do about the life you could save, don’t spend the money. Any other response will not fulfill your preferences as well (and yours are the only ones that matter). Save a few kids, if you want, but don’t sell everything to save them. And sure, if you have a better idea to save more kids with less money then do it. If you don’t, don’t complain that no one has an even better solution than the one you’re offered.
I suspect that part of the problem is that you don’t have a mental self-image as a person who cares about money more than children, and admitting that there are situations where you do makes you feel bad because of that mental image. If this is the case, and it may not be, then you should try to change your mental image.
Note: just because I used the term preferences does not equate what I’m saying to any philosophical or moral position about what we really value or anything like that. I’m using it to denote “those things that you, on reflection, really actually want”, whatever that means.
Yeah, agree with almost everything you say in the first two paragraphs. Your overall points, as I read them, are not new to me; mostly I was confused by what seemed to me a strange formulation. What I thought you were saying and what I am now pretty sure you are saying are the same thing.
Some quibbles:
No one (important) is telling you that you’re a bad person for not saving the children, or a good person for doing so.
Well, no comment on who’s important and who’s not, but I definitely read some posters/commenters here as saying that people who save children are good people, etc. That’s not to say I am necessarily bothered by this.
I suspect that part of the problem is that you don’t have a mental self-image as a person who cares about money more than children, and admitting that there are situations where you do makes you feel bad because of that mental image. If this is the case, and it may not be, then you should try to change your mental image.
It seems mistaken to say that I (or anyone) care about money as such. Money buys things. It’s more like: I care about some things that money can buy (books, say? luxury food products?) more than I care about other things that money can buy (the lives of children in Africa, say). In any case, I try not to base my decisions on a self-image; that seems backwards.
P.S. I have to note that your comments don’t seem to address what I said in the comment I linked (but maybe you did not intend to do so). That comment does speak directly to what my preferences in fact are, and what actions of mine I think would lead to their satisfaction.
So you said that if you want to save children, you should do it (where ‘should’ shouldn’t be heard as a moral imperative or anything like that). Suppose I do want to save children, and therefore (non-morally) should save them, but I don’t. What do you call me or my behavior?
That’s qualitatively the same as you wanting to work but actually ending up spending the whole afternoon on TVTropes or whatnot, or wanting to stop smoking but not doing so, as far as I can tell.
Hmm, that’s a good answer. But akratic cases seem to me to be at least a little bit different: in the case of akrasia, I want to keep working but I also clearly want to read TVTropes (otherwise, why would I be tempted?). And so it’s not as if I’m just failing to do what I want, I’m just doing what I want less instead of what I want more.
Now that I put it like that...I’m starting to wonder how akrasia is even a coherent idea. What could it mean for my desire to read TVTropes to overwhelm my desire to work except that I want to read TVTropes more? And if I want to read TVTropes more than I want to work, in what sense am I making a mistake?
Hmm, that’s a good answer. But akratic cases seem to me to be at least a little bit different: in the case of akrasia, I want to keep working but I also clearly want to read TVTropes (otherwise, why would I be tempted?). And so it’s not as if I’m just failing to do what I want, I’m just doing what I want less instead of what I want more.
And in the case of giving money to save children, you want the children to be saved but you also want to keep your money to spend it on other stuff.
Now that I put it like that...I’m starting to wonder how akrasia is even a coherent idea. What could it mean for my desire to read TVTropes to overwhelm my desire to work except that I want to read TVTropes more? And if I want to read TVTropes more than I want to work, in what sense am I making a mistake?
And in the case of giving money to save children, you want the children to be saved but you also want to keep your money to spend it on other stuff.
Sorry, I was thinking of a crazier kind of situation. I’m thinking of a situation where you want to save the kids, and this is your all-things-considered preference. There are other things you want, but you’ve reflected and you want this more than anything else (and lets say you’re not self-deceived about this). It follows then that you should save the kids. But say you don’t, what do we call that? And I want to grant straight off that there may be some kind of impossibility in my description. Only, there probably should be no impossibility here, otherwise I’m at a loss as to how the word ‘should’ is being used.
maybe you now regret spending all afternoon reading TVTropes rather than working.
Well, that’s just making a trade-off. If you like strawberry ice cream, and you like chocolate ice cream, but you can’t afford to eat both, and you like chocolate ice cream more than strawberry ice cream, you won’t eat strawberry ice cream even though you like it.
So what would you call it if, in the above scenario, I ate some strawberry ice-cream? Assume that my desires are consistant over time, and that my desiring-parts have been reconciled without contradiction, i.e. that this is not a case of akrasia. Am I describing something impossible? Or am I just behaving irrationally?
Yes, if all the assumptions you made hold (also, no declining marginal utility for any ice cream flavour, no preference for variety for variety’s sake, and similar), then I would call eating strawberry ice-cream irrational.
(How likely these assumptions are to be a reasonable approximation to a scenario in real life, that’s another story; for example, people get bored when they always do the same things.)
Okay, thanks. So the ‘should’ of ‘you should save the children (if you want to)’ is a ‘should’ of rationality. Now do I have any reason at all to be rational in this way, or do I just have reason to get the thing I want (i.e. by reason of wanting it).
I mean that if I want X, and this is a reason to get X, do I have another reason to get X, namely that to do so would be rational and to fail to do so would be irrational?
You appear to be failing the twelfth virtue. Rationality is that which leads you to systematically get what you want, not some additional thing you might want in itself.
Hmm, so this seems like a problematic thing to tell someone: if I listen to you, then I’m going to be changing my mind about an object level question (“do we have reasons to be rational?”) because taking a certain position on that question violates a ‘virtue of rationality’. So if I do heed your warning, I fail in the very same way. If I don’t, then I’m stuck in my original failure.
But fair enough, I can’t think of a way to defend the idea of having reasons (specifically) to be rational at the moment.
I don’t know for sure that I do care; I got started on this line of questioning by asking a moral nihilist (if that’s accurate) what they meant by ‘should’ in the claim that if you want to save kids, you should save them. Turns out, the consequent of that sentence is pleonastic with the antecedent.
I’d, probably like you, raise doubts as to what the difference could be between being rational on a given occasion, and getting the highest expected return. On the other hand, I don’t entirely trust my preferences, and the best way to represent the gap between what I want and what I should want seems to be by using words like ‘rationality’, ‘truth’ and maybe ‘goodness’. If you asked me to choose between the morally right thing, and the thing that maximises my own standard of moral value, I’d unhesitatingly go for the former.
So I agree that there’s some absurdity in distinguishing in some particular case between rationality and a particular choice that maximises expected (objective) value. It may be wrong to conclude from this that we can eschew mention of rationality in our actual decision making though: the home of that term may be as a goal or aim, rather than as something standing along-side a particular decision. Once the rational decision has been arrived at, it’s identical with ‘rationality’. Until then, rationality is the ideal that guides you there. Something like that.
The analogy should be clear. There are children whom I can save by donating large sums of money per child to get them mosquito nets? Why am I on the hook for this? This will never end. Are there not more systematic ways of dealing with the whole situation? Some sort of mosquito-net mass production program? Eradicate the mosquitoes somehow? Stop having children?
The analogy should be clear. There are children whom I can save by donating large sums of money per child to get them mosquito nets? Why am I on the hook for this? This will never end. Are there not more systematic ways of dealing with the whole situation? Some sort of mosquito-net mass production program? Eradicate the mosquitoes somehow? Stop having children?
There’s something to these concerns (see the first and third bullet points here), but I believe that the broad picture is that if donors to AMF didn’t step in then the children wouldn’t be covered by mosquito nets. That said, I think that your concerns do reduce AMF’s expected value somewhat.
This is an excellent objection, and very similar to what I thought when I read the post. Here’s some more thoughts in the same direction.
Let’s say that after diving into the pond to save the child, and ruining all of my clothes in the process (which still don’t add up to $2000; no complete set of clothes I own adds up to that much), the very next day, I am walking across the same pond (in new clothes), and the kid’s drowning again.
So of course I save him again and am out a bunch of money/inconvenience again.
And then the next day another kid’s drowning there.
And the next day.
At this point, most of my clothes are ruined, so I’m pretty upset. But more than that: I’m angry. Who the heck is letting these kids play in the pond? Where are their parents? Shouldn’t someone put up a giant sign that says “DON’T PLAY IN THE POND, YOU IDIOT KIDS”, or a fence, or an electrified fence? Is relying on strangers walking across the pond and ruining their clothes to save these hapless kids really the best solution to this problem? Why am I on the hook for this?
At that point, I might complain to the police, say, or the city government, apprise them of the pond situation, and then go to work by a different route, avoiding the pond henceforth.
The analogy should be clear. There are children whom I can save by donating large sums of money per child to get them mosquito nets? Why am I on the hook for this? This will never end. Are there not more systematic ways of dealing with the whole situation? Some sort of mosquito-net mass production program? Eradicate the mosquitoes somehow? Stop having children?
Essentially, the intuition here is that there is someone, somewhere (possibly many someones in different places), shirking responsibility or otherwise behaving in a morally blameworthy fashion, the consequence of which behavior is kids continually being placed in life-threatening situations, which I ostensibly then have the moral obligation to save them from. Well, the end result of me having a policy of simply going ahead and fulfilling this supposed obligation is that there will always be more kids to save, forever. This does not seem like a positive result for anyone, with the possible exception of the aforementioned obligation-shirkers.
If you make this particular change to the example, then the thing you’re trading off against your new shoes and clothes isn’t “saving a child’s life” but “saving one day of a child’s life”. It’s reasonable to value that rather less (which is not to say that it’s reasonable to value it less than your shoes).
Make it another child (as you do in the next paragraph) and it’s more to the point.
But. Part of the reason why “keep saving these children, one by one, at great personal cost” might not be the right answer is that, as you point out, there are other things that are likely to be more effective and efficient, and other people better placed than you to address the problem, who will probably do so if you let them know.
None of that applies in the case of people dying of malaria in sub-Saharan Africa, so far as I can see. There aren’t obviously better approaches than malaria nets, which is why AMF is allegedly one of the most effective charities in good done per unit cost. And, while there are certainly people better placed to address the problem than you are, just telling them “hey, there are people dying of malaria” probably won’t do much to make them do it.
It’s not that I think there are more effective solutions to “save these kids from malaria” than AMF, it’s that the problem of “there are kids to be saved from malaria” is continual and open-ended. There will (it seems) always be kids to be saved from malaria, or something or other. The idea that I am morally obligated to keep doing this, forever, is what seems incorrect.
To view it from another perspective: one of the reasons I would save the drowning kid from the pond is that I want to live in a world where if something bad happens to someone, like “oh no, I am drowning in a pond”, nearby people who are able to help, do so, even at some (not entirely unreasonable) one-time expense. However, I don’t want to live in a world where bad things happening to people is just a fact of life, and other people end up having to reduce themselves to pauper status to continually fix the bad things.
Saving the child is a causal step toward the former world. Donating to AMF seems to be a causal step toward the latter world. Show me a way to fix the problem forever, and I might be interested. “Eradicate all the mosquitoes” seems like a possibility (we did it here in the U.S.). “Stop having children” might be another (though I’m not sure what would be the best way to accomplish that).
Historically, societies with high child mortality have also had high birthrates. If the demographic transition model is right, letting the child die is likely to encourage a continued high birthrate, and saving the child may lower the birthrate.
As far as I can tell, decline in birth rates is caused by availability of contraception and some other factors related to industrialization and technological growth, not by a lowered death rate per se, which by itself simply leads to population growth. Wikipedia also suggests that the demographic transition model may not apply to less-developed countries with widespread disease (AIDS, bacterial infections) such as many in Africa.
What we should be looking for is ways to discourage people from having children, at all, in places and situations where we expect that the kids are likely to need such outside “saving” as discussed in the OP.
I try in general to replace the “lives saved” metric with the “QALYs gained” metric for precisely this reason; maximizing lives saved has some very strange properties. (My go-to example is that it leads me to prefer to avoid curing a condition that causes periodic life-threatening seizures, preferring to treat each seizure as it occurs.)
You can get around that particular example by disvaluing lives lost, rather than valuing lives saved. Of course I agree that actually QALYs or something similar are a far better metric.
“None of that applies in the case of people dying of malaria in sub-Saharan Africa, so far as I can see. There aren’t obviously better approaches than malaria nets, which is why AMF is allegedly one of the most effective charities in good done per unit cost. And, while there are certainly people better placed to address the problem than you are, just telling them “hey, there are people dying of malaria” probably won’t do much to make them do it.”
Well, but then the more important question becomes “how can you convince these people to address the problem”.
Not necessarily more important. (If it turns out that actually there isn’t any realistic way to convince them to address the problem, then “ok, so what else can we do?” is a higher-value question.)
Well worth addressing, though, for sure. Getting governments and very rich people to spend more on helping the neediest parts of the world might be a very valuable activity.
How would you know there isn’t any realistic way to impact them using your resources? Donation to a think-tank seems one possible option.
Probably hard to know with much confidence. So I suppose the question might be (in so far as this makes sense) objectively unimportant but subjectively important,
It’s more accurate to think of bed nets as one fork of the malaria eradication problem. Since malaria parasites need both primary (mosquitoes) and intermediate hosts (infected humans or other vertebrates) in order to reproduce, anything that breaks transmission of the disease or kills its vectors is also going to help reduce its prevalence, and insecticide-treated netting is one of the more cost-effective ways of doing both; it’s not the only one, but it is simple and parallelizable enough to lend itself to charitable funding. Reading about previous successful eradication efforts might be helpful if you’re interested in vector control more generally.
Last I heard, the AMF and similar organizations were aiming to eliminate malaria in Africa within this decade. That sounds a little ambitious to me, but even if that goal’s not met it’s certainly not the open-ended problem you’re painting it as.
If that’s true, I think they absolutely should advertise that fact strongly, as that seems to me to be one of the most persuasive reasons to donate. “You can save a child’s life!” and “We are aiming to fix this problem forever and you can help” are very different.
You’re not “on the hook” or anything of the sort. You’re not morally obligated to save the kids, any more than you’re morally obligated to care about people you care about, or buy lunch from the place you like that’s also cheaper than the other option which you don’t like. But, if you do happen to care about saving children, then you should want to do it. If you don’t, that’s fine; it’s a conditional for a reason. Consequentialism wins the day; take the action that leads most to the world you, personally, want to see. If you really do value the kids more than your clothes though, you should save them, up until the point where you value your clothing more (say it’s your last piece), and then you stop. If you have a better solution to save the kids, then do it. But saying “it’s not my obligation” doesn’t get you to the world you most desire, probably.
Well, unless what you happen to value is discharging your obligations, in which case the whole consequentialist/deontologist divide fades away altogether.
Right, that’s the thought that motivated the “probably” at the end. Although it feels pretty strongly like motivated cognition to actually propose such an argument.
Possibly vaguely relevant
This sounds tautological. I would be reasonably sure I knew what you were saying if not for that line, which confuses me.
I make a relevant rule-consequentialist argument here.
It is tautological, but it’s something you’re ignoring in both this post and the linked reply. If you care about saving children as a part of a complex preference structure, then saving children, all other things being equal, fulfills your preferences more than not saving those children does. Thus, you want to do it. I’m trying to avoid saying you should do it, because I think you’ll read that in the traditional moral framework sense of “you must do this or you are a bad person” or something like that. In reality, there is no such thing as “being a bad person” or “being a good person”, except as individuals or society construct the concepts. Moral obligations don’t exist, period. You don’t have an obligation to save children, but if you prefer children being saved more than you prefer not paying the costs to do so then you don’t need a moral obligation to do it any more than you need a moral obligation to get you to eat lunch at (great and cheap restaurant A) instead of (expensive and bad restaurant B).
Taboo “moral obligation”. No one (important) is telling you that you’re a bad person for not saving the children, or a good person for doing so. You can’t just talk about how you refuse to adopt a rule about always saving children; I agree that would be stupid. No one asked you to do so. If you reach a point (and that can be now) where you care more about the money it would take to save a life than you do about the life you could save, don’t spend the money. Any other response will not fulfill your preferences as well (and yours are the only ones that matter). Save a few kids, if you want, but don’t sell everything to save them. And sure, if you have a better idea to save more kids with less money then do it. If you don’t, don’t complain that no one has an even better solution than the one you’re offered.
I suspect that part of the problem is that you don’t have a mental self-image as a person who cares about money more than children, and admitting that there are situations where you do makes you feel bad because of that mental image. If this is the case, and it may not be, then you should try to change your mental image.
Note: just because I used the term preferences does not equate what I’m saying to any philosophical or moral position about what we really value or anything like that. I’m using it to denote “those things that you, on reflection, really actually want”, whatever that means.
Yeah, agree with almost everything you say in the first two paragraphs. Your overall points, as I read them, are not new to me; mostly I was confused by what seemed to me a strange formulation. What I thought you were saying and what I am now pretty sure you are saying are the same thing.
Some quibbles:
Well, no comment on who’s important and who’s not, but I definitely read some posters/commenters here as saying that people who save children are good people, etc. That’s not to say I am necessarily bothered by this.
It seems mistaken to say that I (or anyone) care about money as such. Money buys things. It’s more like: I care about some things that money can buy (books, say? luxury food products?) more than I care about other things that money can buy (the lives of children in Africa, say). In any case, I try not to base my decisions on a self-image; that seems backwards.
P.S. I have to note that your comments don’t seem to address what I said in the comment I linked (but maybe you did not intend to do so). That comment does speak directly to what my preferences in fact are, and what actions of mine I think would lead to their satisfaction.
So you said that if you want to save children, you should do it (where ‘should’ shouldn’t be heard as a moral imperative or anything like that). Suppose I do want to save children, and therefore (non-morally) should save them, but I don’t. What do you call me or my behavior?
Akrasia?
That’s qualitatively the same as you wanting to work but actually ending up spending the whole afternoon on TVTropes or whatnot, or wanting to stop smoking but not doing so, as far as I can tell.
Hmm, that’s a good answer. But akratic cases seem to me to be at least a little bit different: in the case of akrasia, I want to keep working but I also clearly want to read TVTropes (otherwise, why would I be tempted?). And so it’s not as if I’m just failing to do what I want, I’m just doing what I want less instead of what I want more.
Now that I put it like that...I’m starting to wonder how akrasia is even a coherent idea. What could it mean for my desire to read TVTropes to overwhelm my desire to work except that I want to read TVTropes more? And if I want to read TVTropes more than I want to work, in what sense am I making a mistake?
And in the case of giving money to save children, you want the children to be saved but you also want to keep your money to spend it on other stuff.
It can described as different parts of you, or different time-slices of you, wanting different things: i.e., what you-yesterday wanted is different from what you-today wish you-yesterday had done: maybe you now regret spending all afternoon reading TVTropes rather than working.
Sorry, I was thinking of a crazier kind of situation. I’m thinking of a situation where you want to save the kids, and this is your all-things-considered preference. There are other things you want, but you’ve reflected and you want this more than anything else (and lets say you’re not self-deceived about this). It follows then that you should save the kids. But say you don’t, what do we call that? And I want to grant straight off that there may be some kind of impossibility in my description. Only, there probably should be no impossibility here, otherwise I’m at a loss as to how the word ‘should’ is being used.
Thanks for the link, I’ll think this over.
Well, that’s just making a trade-off. If you like strawberry ice cream, and you like chocolate ice cream, but you can’t afford to eat both, and you like chocolate ice cream more than strawberry ice cream, you won’t eat strawberry ice cream even though you like it.
So what would you call it if, in the above scenario, I ate some strawberry ice-cream? Assume that my desires are consistant over time, and that my desiring-parts have been reconciled without contradiction, i.e. that this is not a case of akrasia. Am I describing something impossible? Or am I just behaving irrationally?
Yes, if all the assumptions you made hold (also, no declining marginal utility for any ice cream flavour, no preference for variety for variety’s sake, and similar), then I would call eating strawberry ice-cream irrational.
(How likely these assumptions are to be a reasonable approximation to a scenario in real life, that’s another story; for example, people get bored when they always do the same things.)
Okay, thanks. So the ‘should’ of ‘you should save the children (if you want to)’ is a ‘should’ of rationality. Now do I have any reason at all to be rational in this way, or do I just have reason to get the thing I want (i.e. by reason of wanting it).
I mean that if I want X, and this is a reason to get X, do I have another reason to get X, namely that to do so would be rational and to fail to do so would be irrational?
You appear to be failing the twelfth virtue. Rationality is that which leads you to systematically get what you want, not some additional thing you might want in itself.
Hmm, so this seems like a problematic thing to tell someone: if I listen to you, then I’m going to be changing my mind about an object level question (“do we have reasons to be rational?”) because taking a certain position on that question violates a ‘virtue of rationality’. So if I do heed your warning, I fail in the very same way. If I don’t, then I’m stuck in my original failure.
But fair enough, I can’t think of a way to defend the idea of having reasons (specifically) to be rational at the moment.
I—I don’t know what to answer at this point—Do you have any idea how you came to care about being rational in the first place?
Would you rather be the one who did what you think of as rational, or the one who is currently smiling from on top of a giant heap of utility? (Too bad that post must use such a potentially controversial example...)
I don’t know for sure that I do care; I got started on this line of questioning by asking a moral nihilist (if that’s accurate) what they meant by ‘should’ in the claim that if you want to save kids, you should save them. Turns out, the consequent of that sentence is pleonastic with the antecedent.
I’d, probably like you, raise doubts as to what the difference could be between being rational on a given occasion, and getting the highest expected return. On the other hand, I don’t entirely trust my preferences, and the best way to represent the gap between what I want and what I should want seems to be by using words like ‘rationality’, ‘truth’ and maybe ‘goodness’. If you asked me to choose between the morally right thing, and the thing that maximises my own standard of moral value, I’d unhesitatingly go for the former.
So I agree that there’s some absurdity in distinguishing in some particular case between rationality and a particular choice that maximises expected (objective) value. It may be wrong to conclude from this that we can eschew mention of rationality in our actual decision making though: the home of that term may be as a goal or aim, rather than as something standing along-side a particular decision. Once the rational decision has been arrived at, it’s identical with ‘rationality’. Until then, rationality is the ideal that guides you there. Something like that.
Relevant parable: The Upstream Story.
Does GiveWell take “acting upstream” into account in its assessment of charity effectiveness?
The link is just a google search which doesn’t give an obvious source for a parable.
Some versions of the parable
There’s something to these concerns (see the first and third bullet points here), but I believe that the broad picture is that if donors to AMF didn’t step in then the children wouldn’t be covered by mosquito nets. That said, I think that your concerns do reduce AMF’s expected value somewhat.