Comments cover up to Chapter 46. UN-ROT13′d SPOILERS.
Love the new chapters! Harry’s takedown of the Dementor was epic! Yes, I know, that term has been devalued by inflation quite a bit, but in this case its original value and meaning hold. A very nice and emotionally powerful summation of Singularitarian values in Harry’s buildup. Also, I didn’t stop and try to guess what Harry’s Patronus would be, but “the rational animal” is the perfect choice!
One little quibble though. When Dumb-ledore and Harry were trying to guess why Quirrell might want to bring a Dementor to Hogwarts, Dumbles never bothers to mention, “Well, Quirrell did challenge me to a bet, that if any of the First Year students could produce a corporeal Patronus, that I’d let him teach the Killing Curse to anyone who was interested.” Naaawwwww, there couldn’t possibly be some ulterior motive to Quirrell’s desire to teach Dark Magic to the kiddies, could there? Surely not!
And isn’t this supposed to be an “Unforgivable” curse, as in, “life in Azkaban” or “the Dementor’s Kiss” for using it? Given the existence of such a law in Wizarding society, it doesn’t make sense to me for Dumbledore to allow Quirrell to teach young children something that, if used in a moment of immaturity, could completely ruin their entire lives. “The WIzengamot has decided that having a temper tantrum is not an excuse. Send for the Dementor!” Imagine a boy like Canon!Draco given the Killing Curse to use as a First Year.
On the other hand, there are other spells that could be equally lethal, like Diffendo (a cutting spell) or Fiendfyre, and those aren’t “Unforgivable.” I suppose the thing about Avada Kedavra is that there’s no defense against it. So, while other spells might be like teaching a young kid to shoot, the Killing Curse is like giving them a rocket launcher. One that’s always loaded, has unlimited ammunition, and is carried with them wherever they go. I.e., not the same thing as a young kid having a gun that they take out and use under parental supervision.
I never really understood the claim that there’s no defense against Avada Kedavra. Sure, there’s no direct countercurse, but you can dodge it or levitate an object between yourself and the curse (Dumbledore levitated a statue in front of Harry to protect him from the curse in Book 5). Both of these responses can be trained to the point of instinct, and voila, you have a defense.
Wait, the fact that the second strategy works is inconsistent. If the Killing Curse can be blocked by inanimate objects, why is it that clothing doesn’t block it?
I forget if this happens in the book, but in the movies the curse damages obects badly when it hits them. So clothing may just be too thin and weak to absorb it.
There is something all too appropriate about comparing AK to a gun.
On the other hand, there are other spells that could be equally lethal, like Diffendo (a cutting spell) or Fiendfyre, and those aren’t “Unforgivable.”
That ‘unforgivable’ label always seemed utterly arbitrary. Yes, torture, coercion and killing tend to be nasty things to do but there are far more ways to go about doing it than those three spells. Effective use of winguardium leviosa could kill dozens of people at once, for example. And combining healing magic with a sharp stick over a period of a month is probably worse than crucio for a couple of seconds. Then there’s the old ‘sleep/stab’ combination that makes ‘sleep’ the most feared spell of all in certain magical worlds.
I suppose the thing about Avada Kedavra is that there’s no defense against it.
That seems to be the big distinguishing feature. Teaching 12 year olds something that Dumbledore himself could not protect anyone against seems like it may have downsides.
I’ve always taken the position that stigmatising AK was arbitrary and pointless but I’ve never quite taken that position all the way to teaching junior grades how to use it. Surely it is something that should at least have the limitations that are in place for apparition? (Even if that just means removing the limits RE: apparition!)
One justification I liked was that AK, being “fueled by hatred”, can only be cast by those who are already beyond the Moral Horizon. So it’s not the murder itself that’s so terrible, it’s that fulfilling the prerequisites for using AK means that you are a dangerous sociopath who cannot be safely let loose in the wizarding world.
Unfortunately this doesn’t cover Crucio and Imperius, which IIRC are even used by some “good guys” in canon. But I’m sure you could come up with some other fan-wank to explain them.
I like that justification too, in as much as it is the best of the possible ‘fan-wank’. Even so I suspect that Lily could have pulled off an AK if she had more of a chance. She had huge reserves of magical talent and a hell of a lot of hatred. Yet she still wouldn’t be a dangerous sociopath. In fact, the scariest thing about sociopaths is that they don’t even need to have overwhelming hatred to do brutally nasty things. The fact that most people need to be overwhelmed by emotion before they violate mores is what distinguishes them from sociopaths.
Oh yes, I was talking about canon; IIRC Lily Potter, or any non-Death Eater, doesn’t attempt AK there, does she?
Not that I recall. Mad Eye AKed a spider but technically that was a death eater impersonating Mad Eye. (Although nobody, not even Dumbledore, seemed to blink when Mad-Eye was AKing arachnids. That suggests that people within canon!verse do not all believe that casting AK means you are actually evil.)
I drew the analogy that it’s like the term “deadly weapon”. Fists can be deadly, but they are not called deadly weapons. Hitting someone in the head with your fist is not guaranteed to kill them. Likewise you can drop a shipping container on someone—and I’m sure this would earn you a life sentence—but Winguardium Leviosa is not itself a deadly (Unforgivable) spell, as an arbitrary cast of the spell is not guaranteed to kill.
It’s still a bit arbitrary. To my knowledge, using a love potion is not Unforgivable—though it’s clearly magical coercion and serves only such a purpose as that.
Mad-Eye/Crouch demonstrated Avada Kedavra on a spider in Book 4, and nobody had a problem with that (besides some of the students, who were appropriately shocked). I assumed that this is how Quirrelmort will teach it here.
Incidentally, he also (next chapter) demonstrated Imperio on students, teaching them to overcome it. He got (or so he claimed) permission from Dumbledore for this, although I don’t know why Dumbledore had the authority to give such permission. He also gave them the opportunity to leave first, but taunted them so that they wouldn’t.
I assumed that this is how Quirrelmort will teach it here.
Here I was thinking he would students with detention run back and forth across the quidditch pitch, like those ducks in the side show shooting ranges. Put them way over the other side of the field to give them a fighting chance. It should only be the slow and uncoordinated ones that can’t dodge in time… what use would Quirrelmort have for dead weight like that?
Comments cover up to Chapter 46. UN-ROT13′d SPOILERS.
Love the new chapters! Harry’s takedown of the Dementor was epic! Yes, I know, that term has been devalued by inflation quite a bit, but in this case its original value and meaning hold. A very nice and emotionally powerful summation of Singularitarian values in Harry’s buildup. Also, I didn’t stop and try to guess what Harry’s Patronus would be, but “the rational animal” is the perfect choice!
One little quibble though. When Dumb-ledore and Harry were trying to guess why Quirrell might want to bring a Dementor to Hogwarts, Dumbles never bothers to mention, “Well, Quirrell did challenge me to a bet, that if any of the First Year students could produce a corporeal Patronus, that I’d let him teach the Killing Curse to anyone who was interested.” Naaawwwww, there couldn’t possibly be some ulterior motive to Quirrell’s desire to teach Dark Magic to the kiddies, could there? Surely not!
And isn’t this supposed to be an “Unforgivable” curse, as in, “life in Azkaban” or “the Dementor’s Kiss” for using it? Given the existence of such a law in Wizarding society, it doesn’t make sense to me for Dumbledore to allow Quirrell to teach young children something that, if used in a moment of immaturity, could completely ruin their entire lives. “The WIzengamot has decided that having a temper tantrum is not an excuse. Send for the Dementor!” Imagine a boy like Canon!Draco given the Killing Curse to use as a First Year.
On the other hand, there are other spells that could be equally lethal, like Diffendo (a cutting spell) or Fiendfyre, and those aren’t “Unforgivable.” I suppose the thing about Avada Kedavra is that there’s no defense against it. So, while other spells might be like teaching a young kid to shoot, the Killing Curse is like giving them a rocket launcher. One that’s always loaded, has unlimited ammunition, and is carried with them wherever they go. I.e., not the same thing as a young kid having a gun that they take out and use under parental supervision.
I never really understood the claim that there’s no defense against Avada Kedavra. Sure, there’s no direct countercurse, but you can dodge it or levitate an object between yourself and the curse (Dumbledore levitated a statue in front of Harry to protect him from the curse in Book 5). Both of these responses can be trained to the point of instinct, and voila, you have a defense.
Wait, the fact that the second strategy works is inconsistent. If the Killing Curse can be blocked by inanimate objects, why is it that clothing doesn’t block it?
I forget if this happens in the book, but in the movies the curse damages obects badly when it hits them. So clothing may just be too thin and weak to absorb it.
Maybe it’s like a liquid, and can get through cloth but not an entire sofa or wall.
That makes sense!
There is something all too appropriate about comparing AK to a gun.
That ‘unforgivable’ label always seemed utterly arbitrary. Yes, torture, coercion and killing tend to be nasty things to do but there are far more ways to go about doing it than those three spells. Effective use of winguardium leviosa could kill dozens of people at once, for example. And combining healing magic with a sharp stick over a period of a month is probably worse than crucio for a couple of seconds. Then there’s the old ‘sleep/stab’ combination that makes ‘sleep’ the most feared spell of all in certain magical worlds.
That seems to be the big distinguishing feature. Teaching 12 year olds something that Dumbledore himself could not protect anyone against seems like it may have downsides.
I’ve always taken the position that stigmatising AK was arbitrary and pointless but I’ve never quite taken that position all the way to teaching junior grades how to use it. Surely it is something that should at least have the limitations that are in place for apparition? (Even if that just means removing the limits RE: apparition!)
One justification I liked was that AK, being “fueled by hatred”, can only be cast by those who are already beyond the Moral Horizon. So it’s not the murder itself that’s so terrible, it’s that fulfilling the prerequisites for using AK means that you are a dangerous sociopath who cannot be safely let loose in the wizarding world.
Unfortunately this doesn’t cover Crucio and Imperius, which IIRC are even used by some “good guys” in canon. But I’m sure you could come up with some other fan-wank to explain them.
I like that justification too, in as much as it is the best of the possible ‘fan-wank’. Even so I suspect that Lily could have pulled off an AK if she had more of a chance. She had huge reserves of magical talent and a hell of a lot of hatred. Yet she still wouldn’t be a dangerous sociopath. In fact, the scariest thing about sociopaths is that they don’t even need to have overwhelming hatred to do brutally nasty things. The fact that most people need to be overwhelmed by emotion before they violate mores is what distinguishes them from sociopaths.
Oh yes, I was talking about canon; IIRC Lily Potter, or any non-Death Eater, doesn’t attempt AK there, does she? The wiki doesn’t say so, at least.
Not that I recall. Mad Eye AKed a spider but technically that was a death eater impersonating Mad Eye. (Although nobody, not even Dumbledore, seemed to blink when Mad-Eye was AKing arachnids. That suggests that people within canon!verse do not all believe that casting AK means you are actually evil.)
Fake!Mad-Eye also told the class that actually casting the Killing Curse was extremely difficult and that none of them would be able to do it.
That kind of claim was usually the prompt for Harry or Hermione to pull it off a couple of chapters later. ;)
Or squishing spiders requires less evil than squishing people.
I drew the analogy that it’s like the term “deadly weapon”. Fists can be deadly, but they are not called deadly weapons. Hitting someone in the head with your fist is not guaranteed to kill them. Likewise you can drop a shipping container on someone—and I’m sure this would earn you a life sentence—but Winguardium Leviosa is not itself a deadly (Unforgivable) spell, as an arbitrary cast of the spell is not guaranteed to kill.
It’s still a bit arbitrary. To my knowledge, using a love potion is not Unforgivable—though it’s clearly magical coercion and serves only such a purpose as that.
Mad-Eye/Crouch demonstrated Avada Kedavra on a spider in Book 4, and nobody had a problem with that (besides some of the students, who were appropriately shocked). I assumed that this is how Quirrelmort will teach it here.
Incidentally, he also (next chapter) demonstrated Imperio on students, teaching them to overcome it. He got (or so he claimed) permission from Dumbledore for this, although I don’t know why Dumbledore had the authority to give such permission. He also gave them the opportunity to leave first, but taunted them so that they wouldn’t.
Here I was thinking he would students with detention run back and forth across the quidditch pitch, like those ducks in the side show shooting ranges. Put them way over the other side of the field to give them a fighting chance. It should only be the slow and uncoordinated ones that can’t dodge in time… what use would Quirrelmort have for dead weight like that?