I propose that some people may say it because it is true and because they have a naive hope that the other party would try to be more charitable if they said it.
make the interaction zero-sum
All disagreements are zero sum, in the sense that one party is right and the other is wrong. A disagreement in only positive sum when your initial priors are so low that the other side only needs a few comments of text to provide sufficient information to change your mind, in other words, when you don’t know what you’re talking about. On the other hand, if you’ve already spent an hour in your life thinking about the topic, then you’ve probably already considered and dismissed the kinds of arguments the other side will bring up (and that’s assuming that you managed to explain what you view is well enough, so that their arguments are relevant to begin with).
Frankly, I’m bothered by how much you blame status games, while completely ignoring the serious challenges of identifying and resolving confusion.
I’m not really faulting all status games in general, only tactics which force them to become zero-sum. It’s basically unreasonable to ask that humans change their value systems so that status doesn’t play any role, but what we can do is alter the rules slightly so that outcomes we don’t like become improbable. If I’m accused of being uncharitable, I have no choice but to defend myself, because being seen as “an uncharitable person” is not something I want to be included in anyone’s models of me (even in the case where it’s true). Even in one-on-one coversations there’s no reason to disengage if this claim was made against me. Especially when it’s a person you trust or admire (more likely if it’s a private conversation) and therefore I care a lot what the other person thinks of me. That’s where the stickyness of demon threads comes from, where disengaging results in the loss of something for either party.
There’s a second type of demon thread where participants get dragged into dead ends that are very deep in, without a very clear map of where the conversation is heading. But I think these reduce to the ususal problems of identifying and resolving confusion, and can’t really be resolved by altering incentives / discussion norms.
It is bad to discuss abstract things. Do you agree that Kensho is an example of a demon thread? Is it a first type or second type? How about the subthread that starts here? I claim that it’s all “second type”. I claim that “first type”, status-game based demon threads without deep confusion, if they exist at all, aren’t even a problem to anyone. I claim that if, in a thread, there are both status games and deep confusion, the games are caused by the frustration resulting from the confusion, not the other way around. Confusion is the real root problem.
the ususal problems of identifying and resolving confusion
Are they “usual”, mundane problems? Do we know of any good solutions? Do we at least have past discussions about them?
<...> can’t really be resolved by altering incentives / discussion norms.
Confusion in the sense of one or both parties coming to the table with incorrect models is a root cause, but this is nearly always the default situation. We ostensibly partake in a conversation in order to update our models to more accurate ones and reduce confusion. So while yes, a lack of confusion would make bad conversations less likely, it also just reduces the need for the conversation to begin with.
And here we’re talking about a specific type of conversation that we’ve claimed is a bad thing and should be prevented. Here we need to identify a different root cause besides “confusion” which was too general of a root cause to explain these specific types of conversations.
What I’m claiming as a candidate cause is that there are usually other underlying motives for a conversation besides resolving disagreement. In addition people are bringing models of the other person’s confusion / motives in to the discussion, and that’s what I argue is causing problems and is a practice that should be set aside.
I think the Kensho post did spawn demon threads and that these threads contained the characteristics I mentioned in my original comment.
We can say that all disagreements start with confusion. Then I claim that if the confusion is quickly resolved, or if one of the parties exits the conversation, then the thread is normal and healthy. And that in all other cases the thread is demonic. Not all confusion is created equal. I’m claiming that the depth of this initial confusion is the best predictor of demon threads. I can understand why status games would prevent someone from exiting, but people ignoring their deep confusions is not a good outcome, so we don’t really want them to exit, we want them to resolve it. I don’t really see how status games could deepen the confusion.
In addition people are bringing models of the other person’s confusion / motives in to the discussion
I’d call that “confusion about what the other party thinks”, and put it under the umbrella of general confusion. In fact that’s the first kind of confusion I think about, when I think of demonic threads, but object-level confusion is important too. Maybe we aren’t disagreeing?
I propose that some people may say it because it is true and because they have a naive hope that the other party would try to be more charitable if they said it.
All disagreements are zero sum, in the sense that one party is right and the other is wrong. A disagreement in only positive sum when your initial priors are so low that the other side only needs a few comments of text to provide sufficient information to change your mind, in other words, when you don’t know what you’re talking about. On the other hand, if you’ve already spent an hour in your life thinking about the topic, then you’ve probably already considered and dismissed the kinds of arguments the other side will bring up (and that’s assuming that you managed to explain what you view is well enough, so that their arguments are relevant to begin with).
Frankly, I’m bothered by how much you blame status games, while completely ignoring the serious challenges of identifying and resolving confusion.
I’m not really faulting all status games in general, only tactics which force them to become zero-sum. It’s basically unreasonable to ask that humans change their value systems so that status doesn’t play any role, but what we can do is alter the rules slightly so that outcomes we don’t like become improbable. If I’m accused of being uncharitable, I have no choice but to defend myself, because being seen as “an uncharitable person” is not something I want to be included in anyone’s models of me (even in the case where it’s true). Even in one-on-one coversations there’s no reason to disengage if this claim was made against me. Especially when it’s a person you trust or admire (more likely if it’s a private conversation) and therefore I care a lot what the other person thinks of me. That’s where the stickyness of demon threads comes from, where disengaging results in the loss of something for either party.
There’s a second type of demon thread where participants get dragged into dead ends that are very deep in, without a very clear map of where the conversation is heading. But I think these reduce to the ususal problems of identifying and resolving confusion, and can’t really be resolved by altering incentives / discussion norms.
It is bad to discuss abstract things. Do you agree that Kensho is an example of a demon thread? Is it a first type or second type? How about the subthread that starts here? I claim that it’s all “second type”. I claim that “first type”, status-game based demon threads without deep confusion, if they exist at all, aren’t even a problem to anyone. I claim that if, in a thread, there are both status games and deep confusion, the games are caused by the frustration resulting from the confusion, not the other way around. Confusion is the real root problem.
Are they “usual”, mundane problems? Do we know of any good solutions? Do we at least have past discussions about them?
Why not? This is not obvious to me.
Confusion in the sense of one or both parties coming to the table with incorrect models is a root cause, but this is nearly always the default situation. We ostensibly partake in a conversation in order to update our models to more accurate ones and reduce confusion. So while yes, a lack of confusion would make bad conversations less likely, it also just reduces the need for the conversation to begin with.
And here we’re talking about a specific type of conversation that we’ve claimed is a bad thing and should be prevented. Here we need to identify a different root cause besides “confusion” which was too general of a root cause to explain these specific types of conversations.
What I’m claiming as a candidate cause is that there are usually other underlying motives for a conversation besides resolving disagreement. In addition people are bringing models of the other person’s confusion / motives in to the discussion, and that’s what I argue is causing problems and is a practice that should be set aside.
I think the Kensho post did spawn demon threads and that these threads contained the characteristics I mentioned in my original comment.
We can say that all disagreements start with confusion. Then I claim that if the confusion is quickly resolved, or if one of the parties exits the conversation, then the thread is normal and healthy. And that in all other cases the thread is demonic. Not all confusion is created equal. I’m claiming that the depth of this initial confusion is the best predictor of demon threads. I can understand why status games would prevent someone from exiting, but people ignoring their deep confusions is not a good outcome, so we don’t really want them to exit, we want them to resolve it. I don’t really see how status games could deepen the confusion.
I’d call that “confusion about what the other party thinks”, and put it under the umbrella of general confusion. In fact that’s the first kind of confusion I think about, when I think of demonic threads, but object-level confusion is important too. Maybe we aren’t disagreeing?