Do you think the level of meat consumption in America is healthy for individuals? Do you think it’s healthy for the planet?
America has an obesity crisis, but I don’t see any reason to think that meat specifically is a major part of it. I’m far more worried about the sugar consumption. If, as part of a general reduction in calorific intake, the meat consumption fell, that would be a good thing, but I worry more about people too poor to afford steak.
Regarding planetary “health”—the damage seems to me to be caused by a lack of property rights and tragedy-of-the-commons situations (see e.g. global warming, fish stock depletion, etc) than meat consumption per se. If reliable property rights could be established, we could all happily consume far more meat than we currently do—and without those reliable property rights, everyone going vegan will make little difference.
How do you feel about factory farming? Would you pay twice as much money for meat raised in a less efficient (but “more natural”) way?
I would (and do) pay a little more for humanely raised meat, but not twice as much. Regarding factory farming—what alternative am I comparing it to? It’s worse than happy animals frolicking in the fields, it’s better than those animals not existing. As in my judgement, the realistic alternative is much closer to the latter, I am an enthusiast for factory farming, but not in an absolute sense.
Are there any animals you would (without significantly changing your mind) never say it was okay to hunt/farm and eat? If so, what distinguishes these animals from the animals which are currently being hunted/farmed?
It’s context-dependent. If I’m starving on a lifeboat, in extremis I’d eat anything that came to hand—even human! - but I wouldn’t resort to cannibalism just out of idle curiosity. There are no animals I’d never eat.
If all your friends were vegetarians, and you had to go out of your way to find meat in a similar way to how vegans must go out of their way right now, do you think you’d still be an omnivore?
Yes. Meat is delicious and I would seek it out.
For Vegetarians:
If there was a way to grow meat in a lab that was indistinguishable from normal meat, and the lab-meat had never been connected to a brain, do you expect you would eat it? Why/why not?
I’d need to know more about the way the meat was grown, and why, but no, I don’t expect I would eat it. Partly because the fact that this product is classified as “meat” tells me a great deal about the people it’s aimed at, and the sensibilities of the corporation behind it. Partly because this kind of artificial creation is highly suspect. But mostly because it’s so unnecessary—when you can live a happy and healthy lifestyle without having any truck with meat, why would you want to go down that route?
Indigenous hunter gatherers across the world get around 30 percent of their annual calories from meat. Chimpanzees, our closest non-human relatives, eat meat. There are arguments that humans evolved to eat meat and that it’s natural to do so. Would you disagree? Elaborate.
Humans didn’t evolve “to” do anything. That’s the naturalistic fallacy. We just evolved. And sure, we have certain adaptations that make it easier for us to eat meat, but we have other adaptations (the shrivelled appendix, for example) that make it harder for us to do so. Unlike most other omnivores, humans can’t safely eat raw meat—presumably because we have adapted to early technology such as fire. That makes it very misleading to talk about what’s “natural” for humans, because there is no natural human state apart from our technology. But sure, there is a sense in which it’s “natural” for humans to eat meat—the same sense in which it’s natural for humans to murder our stepchildren, which chimpanzees and most other mammals do. The word I prefer is “barbaric.”
Do you think it’s any of your business what other people eat? Have you ever tried (more than just suggesting it or leading by example) to get someone to become a vegetarian or vegan?
As long as governments are pumping billions into agricultural subsidies, as long as corporations are distorting the democratic process and subverting the First Amendment with ag-gag laws, as long as chemicals and pollutants are flooding our rivers, as long as innocent animals are being tortured so you can eat a roast, then of course it’s everyone’s business. What you put into your mouth may seem like a private decision, but your ability to eat meat rests on a massive industry and supply chain that affects all of us, whether we like it or not. Externalities matter.
Yes, I have encouraged vegetarianism. I have volunteered for Viva in the past. However, there is a time and a place for such conversations. It’s better to build trust first, rather than hectoring strangers.
What do you think is the primary health risk of eating meat (if any)?
The biggest risk is heart disease and related cardiovascular problems. However, the increased cancer risk is almost as bad.
Regarding factory farming—what alternative am I comparing it to? It’s worse than happy animals frolicking in the fields, it’s better than those animals not existing.
This is such a weird argument to me. It seems to me self-evident that happy animals > animals not existing > suffering animals. Or don’t you think that factory animals are suffering?
I don’t know what you mean by “suffering.” Google defines it as “the state of undergoing pain, distress, or hardship.” But just because you’re going through pain and hardship, doesn’t mean you’d rather be dead. You can be suffering in some ways, and still have a net-positive life—indeed, this is the normal meaning of suffering. Do you deny that the inhabitants of the Syrian refugee camps are suffering? Do you think they’d be better off not to have been born?
Do factory farmed animals sometimes suffer? Surely. Is their life such a constant torment that non-existence would be preferable? Surely not.
They’re not in ‘constant torment’, I think. But ‘unhappy most of the time’, yeah. Not the animals you see outside in pastures, those are probably pretty content a lot of the time; but the ones that spend all their life in a cage, definitely.
The Syrians I don’t know. Anyone in a refugee camp must be very unhappy, surely. But maybe they were happy before they had to go to those camps, and hopefully they’ll get a chance to be happy again sometime. You’d have to ask the people themselves.
But I think most people’s lives are net negative, not just the ones living in camps. Just go sit in a mall or something, and look at people’s faces, and listen to what they’re saying to each other, and in what tones. And it stands to reason. First you have to go to school, and you’d need to be pretty darn happy later in life to make up for that. And then you have to work, which most people hate. You’re lucky if your job is just boring and you like your co-workers. Sure, in your free time you get to do stuff that’s more fun, but you also get physical and emotional pain, and sickness.
For Omnivores:
Do you think the level of meat consumption in America is healthy for individuals? Do you think it’s healthy for the planet?
America has an obesity crisis, but I don’t see any reason to think that meat specifically is a major part of it. I’m far more worried about the sugar consumption. If, as part of a general reduction in calorific intake, the meat consumption fell, that would be a good thing, but I worry more about people too poor to afford steak.
Regarding planetary “health”—the damage seems to me to be caused by a lack of property rights and tragedy-of-the-commons situations (see e.g. global warming, fish stock depletion, etc) than meat consumption per se. If reliable property rights could be established, we could all happily consume far more meat than we currently do—and without those reliable property rights, everyone going vegan will make little difference.
How do you feel about factory farming? Would you pay twice as much money for meat raised in a less efficient (but “more natural”) way?
I would (and do) pay a little more for humanely raised meat, but not twice as much. Regarding factory farming—what alternative am I comparing it to? It’s worse than happy animals frolicking in the fields, it’s better than those animals not existing. As in my judgement, the realistic alternative is much closer to the latter, I am an enthusiast for factory farming, but not in an absolute sense.
Are there any animals you would (without significantly changing your mind) never say it was okay to hunt/farm and eat? If so, what distinguishes these animals from the animals which are currently being hunted/farmed?
It’s context-dependent. If I’m starving on a lifeboat, in extremis I’d eat anything that came to hand—even human! - but I wouldn’t resort to cannibalism just out of idle curiosity. There are no animals I’d never eat.
If all your friends were vegetarians, and you had to go out of your way to find meat in a similar way to how vegans must go out of their way right now, do you think you’d still be an omnivore?
Yes. Meat is delicious and I would seek it out.
For Vegetarians:
If there was a way to grow meat in a lab that was indistinguishable from normal meat, and the lab-meat had never been connected to a brain, do you expect you would eat it? Why/why not?
I’d need to know more about the way the meat was grown, and why, but no, I don’t expect I would eat it. Partly because the fact that this product is classified as “meat” tells me a great deal about the people it’s aimed at, and the sensibilities of the corporation behind it. Partly because this kind of artificial creation is highly suspect. But mostly because it’s so unnecessary—when you can live a happy and healthy lifestyle without having any truck with meat, why would you want to go down that route?
Indigenous hunter gatherers across the world get around 30 percent of their annual calories from meat. Chimpanzees, our closest non-human relatives, eat meat. There are arguments that humans evolved to eat meat and that it’s natural to do so. Would you disagree? Elaborate.
Humans didn’t evolve “to” do anything. That’s the naturalistic fallacy. We just evolved. And sure, we have certain adaptations that make it easier for us to eat meat, but we have other adaptations (the shrivelled appendix, for example) that make it harder for us to do so. Unlike most other omnivores, humans can’t safely eat raw meat—presumably because we have adapted to early technology such as fire. That makes it very misleading to talk about what’s “natural” for humans, because there is no natural human state apart from our technology. But sure, there is a sense in which it’s “natural” for humans to eat meat—the same sense in which it’s natural for humans to murder our stepchildren, which chimpanzees and most other mammals do. The word I prefer is “barbaric.”
Do you think it’s any of your business what other people eat? Have you ever tried (more than just suggesting it or leading by example) to get someone to become a vegetarian or vegan?
As long as governments are pumping billions into agricultural subsidies, as long as corporations are distorting the democratic process and subverting the First Amendment with ag-gag laws, as long as chemicals and pollutants are flooding our rivers, as long as innocent animals are being tortured so you can eat a roast, then of course it’s everyone’s business. What you put into your mouth may seem like a private decision, but your ability to eat meat rests on a massive industry and supply chain that affects all of us, whether we like it or not. Externalities matter.
Yes, I have encouraged vegetarianism. I have volunteered for Viva in the past. However, there is a time and a place for such conversations. It’s better to build trust first, rather than hectoring strangers.
What do you think is the primary health risk of eating meat (if any)?
The biggest risk is heart disease and related cardiovascular problems. However, the increased cancer risk is almost as bad.
This is such a weird argument to me. It seems to me self-evident that happy animals > animals not existing > suffering animals. Or don’t you think that factory animals are suffering?
With my omnivore hat on:
I don’t know what you mean by “suffering.” Google defines it as “the state of undergoing pain, distress, or hardship.” But just because you’re going through pain and hardship, doesn’t mean you’d rather be dead. You can be suffering in some ways, and still have a net-positive life—indeed, this is the normal meaning of suffering. Do you deny that the inhabitants of the Syrian refugee camps are suffering? Do you think they’d be better off not to have been born?
Do factory farmed animals sometimes suffer? Surely. Is their life such a constant torment that non-existence would be preferable? Surely not.
They’re not in ‘constant torment’, I think. But ‘unhappy most of the time’, yeah. Not the animals you see outside in pastures, those are probably pretty content a lot of the time; but the ones that spend all their life in a cage, definitely.
The Syrians I don’t know. Anyone in a refugee camp must be very unhappy, surely. But maybe they were happy before they had to go to those camps, and hopefully they’ll get a chance to be happy again sometime. You’d have to ask the people themselves.
But I think most people’s lives are net negative, not just the ones living in camps. Just go sit in a mall or something, and look at people’s faces, and listen to what they’re saying to each other, and in what tones. And it stands to reason. First you have to go to school, and you’d need to be pretty darn happy later in life to make up for that. And then you have to work, which most people hate. You’re lucky if your job is just boring and you like your co-workers. Sure, in your free time you get to do stuff that’s more fun, but you also get physical and emotional pain, and sickness.
I really like this entry. Don’t forget to PM me your actual opinion so I can give feedback to the judges and see how you do. ^_^