Why not choose both as long as this doesn’t lead to unwanted side-effects? It gets interesting when the two are mutually exclusive. If it turns out that eating more meat reduces the amount of wild animals that are suffering, then that would imo be the best argument against vegetarianism. It is hard to estimate what the effects of global warming will be on wild animal populations though. And even if the argument goes through, I think the biggest benefit from raising the issue of vegetarianism comes from promoting concern for the interests/suffering of nonhumans. To the extent that current memes determine the trajectory of the far future, this would dominate over the direct impact of personal consumption.
Lots of people care about the suffering of wild animals. The facebook group “reducing wild animal suffering” currently has 500+ members and many are part of the rationalist community.
Thank you, this is news to me. The page is fairly non-descript though, do you know what sorts of measures they are taking to reduce animal suffering in the wild? Most of what I saw was actually only addressing human caused animal suffering.
The general consensus is that at this stage, it’s most important to raise awareness about wild animal suffering so future generations are likely to do something about the issue. This is done by spreading anti-speciesism and by countering the view that whatever is natural is somehow good or that nature “has a plan”. It seems especially important to try to change the paradigm in ecology and conservation biology in order to focus more attention on the largest source of suffering on the planet. Some altruists also focus on this issue because of concerns about space colonisation, for instance, future humans might want to colonise the universe with Darwinian life or do ancestor simulations, which would be very bad from an anti-speciesist point of view.
Obamacare for elephants probably doesn’t rank highly in the priorities of most lesswrongers. But from an anthropocentric perspective, isn’t an analogous scenario for human beings—i.e. to stay free living but not “wild”—the most utopian outcome if the MIRI conception of an Intelligence Explosion comes to pass?
Be wary of Facebook groups whose consensus is “it’s most important to promote awareness at this stage”.
I was just thinking about how I agree with you, but I realized that I don’t know why. What’s wrong with promoting awareness? Even though I find it intuitively unappealing, I think the reason why it’s usually ineffective is because most interventions are ineffective. I don’t see any other reason. Sometimes (e.g. when fundraising), promoting awareness is extremely effective.
I don’t know about you, but my explanation for being leery is: what Facebook groups do I expect to encounter? Answer: those that devote a large amount of effort to promoting themselves. (I also expect to encounter Facebook groups that are popular/worthy, but note that the anthropic reason I gave first applies no matter whether the group is actually good). Be skeptical of things that come to your attention through Facebook—at least beware privileging the hypothesis.
I agree that awareness promotion can be good, but another instinct tells me that Facebookers love to conclude that the best thing they can do is share/like/etc. - it’s like finding the cheapest way possible to feel like a good person.
I agree that awareness promotion can be good, but another instinct tells me that Facebookers love to conclude that the best thing they can do is share/like/etc. - it’s like finding the cheapest way possible to feel like a good person.
Yes, the “share/like/etc” phenomenon. I do think there’s a big difference between “share this video because this will somehow help those child soldiers in some indefinite way” versus “get more people to care about this issue, but also we have no idea how to actually fix it so we can’t really recommend anything beyond that.” Many supports of reducing wild-animal suffering want to actually solve the problem, but it looks like the best way to do that is to bring the problem to the attention of more people who will potentially be able to help solve it.
It’s a very different situation from, say, malaria, where we already know that donating to AMF is among the best things to do. But now that I think about it, a video promoting AMF that got popular on Facebook would probably elicit a lot of new donations.
Sure, and if the purpose of a group is to reduce animal suffering and voluntary changes in individual consumption patterns are the most effective route, then the likes/shares are presumably accompanied by those people using less farmed animal products.
Why not choose both as long as this doesn’t lead to unwanted side-effects? It gets interesting when the two are mutually exclusive. If it turns out that eating more meat reduces the amount of wild animals that are suffering, then that would imo be the best argument against vegetarianism. It is hard to estimate what the effects of global warming will be on wild animal populations though. And even if the argument goes through, I think the biggest benefit from raising the issue of vegetarianism comes from promoting concern for the interests/suffering of nonhumans. To the extent that current memes determine the trajectory of the far future, this would dominate over the direct impact of personal consumption.
Exactly my question. Why the concern over group A and almost no concern over group B?
Lots of people care about the suffering of wild animals. The facebook group “reducing wild animal suffering” currently has 500+ members and many are part of the rationalist community.
Thank you, this is news to me. The page is fairly non-descript though, do you know what sorts of measures they are taking to reduce animal suffering in the wild? Most of what I saw was actually only addressing human caused animal suffering.
The general consensus is that at this stage, it’s most important to raise awareness about wild animal suffering so future generations are likely to do something about the issue. This is done by spreading anti-speciesism and by countering the view that whatever is natural is somehow good or that nature “has a plan”. It seems especially important to try to change the paradigm in ecology and conservation biology in order to focus more attention on the largest source of suffering on the planet. Some altruists also focus on this issue because of concerns about space colonisation, for instance, future humans might want to colonise the universe with Darwinian life or do ancestor simulations, which would be very bad from an anti-speciesist point of view.
Some imagined long-term solutions for the problem of wild animal suffering range from a welfare state for elephants to reprogramming predators to reducing biomass, but right now people are mainly trying to raise awareness for more intuitive interventions such as vaccinating wild animals against diseases (which is already done in some cases for the benefit of humans), not reintroducing predators to regions for human aesthetic reasons, and helping individual animals in distress as opposed to obeying the common anti-interventionist policies in wildlife parks.
Upvoted for specificity. I appreciate that the people in this movement are taking altruistic vegetarianism to its logical conclusion.
Obamacare for elephants probably doesn’t rank highly in the priorities of most lesswrongers. But from an anthropocentric perspective, isn’t an analogous scenario for human beings—i.e. to stay free living but not “wild”—the most utopian outcome if the MIRI conception of an Intelligence Explosion comes to pass?
Be wary of Facebook groups whose consensus is “it’s most important to promote awareness at this stage”.
That said, I like the group/concept. It’s interesting to ponder, and a welcome counterpart to “reduce farmed animal suffering”.
I was just thinking about how I agree with you, but I realized that I don’t know why. What’s wrong with promoting awareness? Even though I find it intuitively unappealing, I think the reason why it’s usually ineffective is because most interventions are ineffective. I don’t see any other reason. Sometimes (e.g. when fundraising), promoting awareness is extremely effective.
I don’t know about you, but my explanation for being leery is: what Facebook groups do I expect to encounter? Answer: those that devote a large amount of effort to promoting themselves. (I also expect to encounter Facebook groups that are popular/worthy, but note that the anthropic reason I gave first applies no matter whether the group is actually good). Be skeptical of things that come to your attention through Facebook—at least beware privileging the hypothesis.
I agree that awareness promotion can be good, but another instinct tells me that Facebookers love to conclude that the best thing they can do is share/like/etc. - it’s like finding the cheapest way possible to feel like a good person.
Yes, the “share/like/etc” phenomenon. I do think there’s a big difference between “share this video because this will somehow help those child soldiers in some indefinite way” versus “get more people to care about this issue, but also we have no idea how to actually fix it so we can’t really recommend anything beyond that.” Many supports of reducing wild-animal suffering want to actually solve the problem, but it looks like the best way to do that is to bring the problem to the attention of more people who will potentially be able to help solve it.
It’s a very different situation from, say, malaria, where we already know that donating to AMF is among the best things to do. But now that I think about it, a video promoting AMF that got popular on Facebook would probably elicit a lot of new donations.
Sure, and if the purpose of a group is to reduce animal suffering and voluntary changes in individual consumption patterns are the most effective route, then the likes/shares are presumably accompanied by those people using less farmed animal products.