It’s a subtle point, but theocratic doesn’t mean “rule according to religious dictates”; it means “rule by the clerical arbiters of religious dictates.” Medieval Christian states, with the notable exceptions of the Papal States and Montenegro, were not theocratic. In other words, Iran is a partial theocracy; Saudi Arabia, at least de jure, is not. Nevertheless, official religion is probably a more oppressive force in Saudi Arabia than it is in Iran.
The Christian Reconstructionists give me the willies just as much as anyone else around here, but it is probably not correct to label them theocratic (and the fact that they aren’t theocrats doesn’t make them less dangerous).
Voting your comment up for being a valid point. That said, while that may be the intended use of theocratic, but in context here it seems that the poster intended to mean theocratic in a more general sense. I
Note that given the historical existence of the Papal States, the claim is, even when interpreted in the narrow sense, still wrong.
This also runs into the problem that many governments in the Islamic world did not generally have a theocratic element in this narrow sense. The Ottoman Empire for example did not have clergy members involved in politics (although technically speaking the sultan was officially considered to be the heir of the caliphate, I think.).
So while you’ve made a good point about the technical meaning of the word, I don’t think it saves the poster’s remarks.
Note that given the historical existence of the Papal States, the claim is, even when interpreted in the narrow sense, still wrong.
I think Sam is generally correct about Western Christianity. Yes, historically many church officials have simultaneously held secular power, and this was by no means limited to the Papal States—as the most notable examples, in the Holy Roman Empire there were a great many sovereign abbeys and prince-bishops. These were theoretically under imperial authority, but in practice, except for the occasional appearance of strong medieval emperors, they were fully sovereign for all practical purposes. (Interestingly, besides the Vatican, another historical relic nowadays is Andorra, whose co-sovereign, in an odd arrangement, is the bishop of Urgell in Catalonia.)
However, in all these cases, the simultaneous secular and ecclesiastical authority was considered as two separate functions exercised by the same person or institution, not as one and the same. The closest modern analogy would be when a bishop as an individual, or an abbey as a corporation, is also the owner of some business enterprise. (Indeed, before the rise of the modern nation-state, the line between sovereignty and private property was much less clear.) The claim to the secular authority over a piece of land could be gained or lost by conquest or a legal transfer independently of the ecclesiastical title, even if they were often held and passed together for many generations. The secular issues would be under the jurisdiction of the local secular legal system, typically derived from some mix of the local customary law, Roman law, and sovereign statue, while the ecclesiastical issues would fall under the canon law.
This is very different from a real theocracy, where religious leaders claim secular authority by virtue of their religious status alone, and where religion is considered as the sole, or at least primary, source of law—something that was never true for any legal system under Western Christianity. Even in the Papal States, the religious office of the Holy See and the sovereign office of the monarch of the Papal States were considered as separate. (And foreign powers could deal with either of these separately.)
This is not to say that popes never claimed theocratic secular authority. However, such claims were typically unsuccessful, and even their occasional temporary and limited success would backfire badly. Insofar as real theocracies ever sprang up under Western Christianity, it happened among peculiar fringe groups, such as the New England Puritans.
You also say:
There’s a reason that the Catholic Church in the 19th century labeled the idea of separation of Church and State a heresy dubbed “Americanism”.
However, the heresy of Americanism was about principled opposition to having an established church. But an established church is very different from theocracy. The fact that a particular church is awarded particular legal privileges, or even some kind of special representation in the government, doesn’t mean that religious leaders are claiming secular sovereignty by virtue of their religious position, or that religious law is being enforced. England, for example, has had an established church throughout its history (there are still bishops in the House of Lords), and it was never a theocracy in any meaningful sense of the term.
Similarly, the idea that secular law should incorporate values dictated by the predominant or established religion is not theocratic either, as long as the law originates from legislators whose office is not religious, and doesn’t claim a religious basis for its authority. Of course, a principled secularist may consider any legal privileges awarded to religious groups and any religious influences on the law as unacceptable. But claiming that any such things automatically constitute theocracy is an abuse of the term.
Also:
The Ottoman Empire for example did not have clergy members involved in politics (although technically speaking the sultan was officially considered to be the heir of the caliphate, I think.).
Ironically, for Christians living under the Ottomans, the millet system) forced a much greater blending of religious and secular authority than anywhere in the West. It is in fact one of the main reasons why I had to make the qualification about “Western” Christianity in the above paragraphs. (Though not the only one, as things were somewhat different in Eastern Christianity even before the Turks.)
That aside, the Ottomans were indeed a peculiar period in the Islamic history, and their rule was long and widespread enough that these peculiarities should be taken into account when making general statements about the Islamic world. On the other hand, it is undeniable that the basic theocratic notions, such as law derived straight from religious authority and lack of clear de jure separation between religious and secular offices, have indeed been much more characteristic of Islam than of Christianity—especially Western Christianity, whose historical tradition of such separation is in fact the root of the modern notions about the separation of church and state.
England, for example, has had an established church throughout its history (there are still bishops in the House of Lords), and it was never a theocracy in any meaningful sense of the term.
Theocracy has a lot of meanings, and one can argue that Elizabethan England was a theocracy in that the head of state was the head of the religion, and that the official religion was compulsory, but I was contrasting Islam and Christianity, and Elizabethan England was not a theocracy in the sense that Islam is a theocracy, one difference being that law in islam supposed to be religious, that secular law is supposed to be subordinate to religious law and priestly authority, while England had truly secular law independent of priestly authority, another difference being that Queen Elizabeth the first was under no obligation to make holy war to extend the true religion, whereas the Caliph was under
obligation to make holy war to extend the true religion.
The biggest difference of course is that every Shakespearean play was written from a Roman Catholic, materialist, or pagan point of view, whereas you could not get away with that sort of thing under Islam—and indeed you cannot get away with it in today’s England where no television program or movie will written from a politically incorrect point of view. In this sense, Elizabethan England was not a theocracy, and today’s England is a theocracy.
In the original context, the implied definition of the theocracy for that post is that in Islam, the ruler’s authority comes from the true religion: The ruler must be a true Muslim, and his law must be subordinate to Shaia law. In Christianity, Caesar’s authority does not come from the true religion, he need not be a true Christian, and his law is not subject to priestly authority.
In another post, I might well use a different implied definition of theocracy, under which most of the Christian past was theocratic, or all states are theocratic in some sense, some being more theocratic than others.
But in other contexts, other definitions are defensible.
The biggest difference of course is that every Shakespearean play was written from a Roman Catholic, materialist, or pagan point of view,
You’ve claimed that before, and I’ve challenged that position, and you’ve not provided any evidence to support it.
EDIT TO ADD: Also, to make proper comparisons with modern-day political correctness (i.e. following what is considered the limits of acceptable political discourse), you need to show where a Shakespearean play ever attacks Queen Elizabeth or her politics.
Also, to make proper comparisons with modern-day political correctness (i.e. following what is considered the limits of acceptable political discourse), you need to show where a Shakespearean play ever attacks Queen Elizabeth or her politics.
Elizabethan England did not enforce a political view, in large part because in those days religion was politics., it enforced a religious view. Religious issues where what was controversial back then, were what people argued over, and frequently killed each other over. The divine right and natural right of Kings was like motherhood and apple pie, not an issue.
Which official religious beliefs Shakespeare with great regularity doubted, and sometimes attacked—his plays imply the existence of purgatory, doubt the existence of an afterlife, and doubt the existence of a God that cares about humans, or pays much attention to them.
Modern politics asserts several political views that have distinctly religious characteristics, such as that all humans are equal, and then enforces equality in the in sense of interchangeability. Modern films, plays, and books not merely refrain from doubting such views, but actively uphold them. Not one black who is a significant character is stereotypical, a quite improbable number of them are actively counterstereotypical. Almost all heroines and love interests are actively counter stereotypical, for example in that they quite improbably successfully beat up bad guys, the most notorious example being princess Leia improbably and unbelievably throttling Jabba the Hut.
Elizabethan England did not enforce a political view,
You keep talking utter falsehood about past eras, which you predictably and utterly fail to substantiate with evidence.
I’ve already told you about Shakespeare needing to present Macbeth as a tyrant, and Jeanne D’arc as an evil witch. Here’s some more direct evidence of political censoring: Quotes from http://www.family-source.com/cache/144244/idx/0
“The best-known case of political censorship is that of Richard II. The play’s first edition had a scene that showed the deposition of Richard II, which “so infuriated Queen Elizabeth that she ordered it eliminated from all copies”
“In Henry IV, the name Oldcastle was changed to Falstaff after the intervention of the Cobham family, Sir John Oldcastle’s descendants, who were powerful in the Elizabethan court (”
such as that all humans are equal and then enforcing equality in the in sense of interchangeability
Are you kidding us? With half the released movies being superhero flicks where people of special heritage and/or power have the fate of the whole world resting on their shoulders (X-Men, Superman, Batman, Spiderman), or other Messiah/Mighty Whitey types (e.g. Avatar, The Last Samurai, Dances With Wolves, The Matrix)?
the most notorious example being Princess Leia improbably and unbelievably throttling Jabba the Hut.
She’s a princess. From a family of Jedis. You bring up Star Wars in the same paragraph that you claim that modern films portray all humans as equal and interchangeable, and you don’t even notice the fricking irony? Is Luke Skywalker interchangeable with Stormtrooper #4, or even with Lando Calrissian? Is Anakin Skywalker interchangeable with even Random Jedi #52?
Look, nearly every single sentence of yours ends up unsubstantiated, and disproven ludicrously easily. Can you just try to think of an obvious counterexample to your claims before you press “Comment” next time, so that you don’t waste our time typing said obvious counterexamples?
Note that given the historical existence of the Papal States, the claim is, even when interpreted in the narrow sense, still wrong.
While the donation of Constantine was fraudulent, the donations of Charles the Hammer and Charles the great were real enough, but the church ruled those states under the holy Roman emperor, like a baron under a king—hence arguably not a theocracy. At least that is what they argued, though as the authority of the holy Roman emperor declined, the argument became less credible, and was accordingly condemned.
While the donation of Constantine was fraudulent, the donations of Charles the Hammer and Charles the great were real enough,
The very fact that papal secular authority was justified by the alleged Donation of Constantine reflects a profound lack of theocratic thinking. In a theocracy, a religious leader claims secular authority as inherent to his religious office—yet the popes and their champions considered it necessary to present their claim as inherited from a purely secular sovereign, despite the ultimate papal religious authority.
I don’t agree with his point at all. I’m just trying to preempt possible confusion if this thread ends up continuing—it’s helpful if everyone actually uses the term the same way.
It’s a subtle point, but theocratic doesn’t mean “rule according to religious dictates”; it means “rule by the clerical arbiters of religious dictates.” Medieval Christian states, with the notable exceptions of the Papal States and Montenegro, were not theocratic. In other words, Iran is a partial theocracy; Saudi Arabia, at least de jure, is not. Nevertheless, official religion is probably a more oppressive force in Saudi Arabia than it is in Iran.
The Christian Reconstructionists give me the willies just as much as anyone else around here, but it is probably not correct to label them theocratic (and the fact that they aren’t theocrats doesn’t make them less dangerous).
Voting your comment up for being a valid point. That said, while that may be the intended use of theocratic, but in context here it seems that the poster intended to mean theocratic in a more general sense. I
Note that given the historical existence of the Papal States, the claim is, even when interpreted in the narrow sense, still wrong.
This also runs into the problem that many governments in the Islamic world did not generally have a theocratic element in this narrow sense. The Ottoman Empire for example did not have clergy members involved in politics (although technically speaking the sultan was officially considered to be the heir of the caliphate, I think.).
So while you’ve made a good point about the technical meaning of the word, I don’t think it saves the poster’s remarks.
I think Sam is generally correct about Western Christianity. Yes, historically many church officials have simultaneously held secular power, and this was by no means limited to the Papal States—as the most notable examples, in the Holy Roman Empire there were a great many sovereign abbeys and prince-bishops. These were theoretically under imperial authority, but in practice, except for the occasional appearance of strong medieval emperors, they were fully sovereign for all practical purposes. (Interestingly, besides the Vatican, another historical relic nowadays is Andorra, whose co-sovereign, in an odd arrangement, is the bishop of Urgell in Catalonia.)
However, in all these cases, the simultaneous secular and ecclesiastical authority was considered as two separate functions exercised by the same person or institution, not as one and the same. The closest modern analogy would be when a bishop as an individual, or an abbey as a corporation, is also the owner of some business enterprise. (Indeed, before the rise of the modern nation-state, the line between sovereignty and private property was much less clear.) The claim to the secular authority over a piece of land could be gained or lost by conquest or a legal transfer independently of the ecclesiastical title, even if they were often held and passed together for many generations. The secular issues would be under the jurisdiction of the local secular legal system, typically derived from some mix of the local customary law, Roman law, and sovereign statue, while the ecclesiastical issues would fall under the canon law.
This is very different from a real theocracy, where religious leaders claim secular authority by virtue of their religious status alone, and where religion is considered as the sole, or at least primary, source of law—something that was never true for any legal system under Western Christianity. Even in the Papal States, the religious office of the Holy See and the sovereign office of the monarch of the Papal States were considered as separate. (And foreign powers could deal with either of these separately.)
This is not to say that popes never claimed theocratic secular authority. However, such claims were typically unsuccessful, and even their occasional temporary and limited success would backfire badly. Insofar as real theocracies ever sprang up under Western Christianity, it happened among peculiar fringe groups, such as the New England Puritans.
You also say:
However, the heresy of Americanism was about principled opposition to having an established church. But an established church is very different from theocracy. The fact that a particular church is awarded particular legal privileges, or even some kind of special representation in the government, doesn’t mean that religious leaders are claiming secular sovereignty by virtue of their religious position, or that religious law is being enforced. England, for example, has had an established church throughout its history (there are still bishops in the House of Lords), and it was never a theocracy in any meaningful sense of the term.
Similarly, the idea that secular law should incorporate values dictated by the predominant or established religion is not theocratic either, as long as the law originates from legislators whose office is not religious, and doesn’t claim a religious basis for its authority. Of course, a principled secularist may consider any legal privileges awarded to religious groups and any religious influences on the law as unacceptable. But claiming that any such things automatically constitute theocracy is an abuse of the term.
Also:
Ironically, for Christians living under the Ottomans, the millet system) forced a much greater blending of religious and secular authority than anywhere in the West. It is in fact one of the main reasons why I had to make the qualification about “Western” Christianity in the above paragraphs. (Though not the only one, as things were somewhat different in Eastern Christianity even before the Turks.)
That aside, the Ottomans were indeed a peculiar period in the Islamic history, and their rule was long and widespread enough that these peculiarities should be taken into account when making general statements about the Islamic world. On the other hand, it is undeniable that the basic theocratic notions, such as law derived straight from religious authority and lack of clear de jure separation between religious and secular offices, have indeed been much more characteristic of Islam than of Christianity—especially Western Christianity, whose historical tradition of such separation is in fact the root of the modern notions about the separation of church and state.
Theocracy has a lot of meanings, and one can argue that Elizabethan England was a theocracy in that the head of state was the head of the religion, and that the official religion was compulsory, but I was contrasting Islam and Christianity, and Elizabethan England was not a theocracy in the sense that Islam is a theocracy, one difference being that law in islam supposed to be religious, that secular law is supposed to be subordinate to religious law and priestly authority, while England had truly secular law independent of priestly authority, another difference being that Queen Elizabeth the first was under no obligation to make holy war to extend the true religion, whereas the Caliph was under obligation to make holy war to extend the true religion.
The biggest difference of course is that every Shakespearean play was written from a Roman Catholic, materialist, or pagan point of view, whereas you could not get away with that sort of thing under Islam—and indeed you cannot get away with it in today’s England where no television program or movie will written from a politically incorrect point of view. In this sense, Elizabethan England was not a theocracy, and today’s England is a theocracy.
In the original context, the implied definition of the theocracy for that post is that in Islam, the ruler’s authority comes from the true religion: The ruler must be a true Muslim, and his law must be subordinate to Shaia law. In Christianity, Caesar’s authority does not come from the true religion, he need not be a true Christian, and his law is not subject to priestly authority.
In another post, I might well use a different implied definition of theocracy, under which most of the Christian past was theocratic, or all states are theocratic in some sense, some being more theocratic than others.
But in other contexts, other definitions are defensible.
You’ve claimed that before, and I’ve challenged that position, and you’ve not provided any evidence to support it.
EDIT TO ADD: Also, to make proper comparisons with modern-day political correctness (i.e. following what is considered the limits of acceptable political discourse), you need to show where a Shakespearean play ever attacks Queen Elizabeth or her politics.
Elizabethan England did not enforce a political view, in large part because in those days religion was politics., it enforced a religious view. Religious issues where what was controversial back then, were what people argued over, and frequently killed each other over. The divine right and natural right of Kings was like motherhood and apple pie, not an issue.
Which official religious beliefs Shakespeare with great regularity doubted, and sometimes attacked—his plays imply the existence of purgatory, doubt the existence of an afterlife, and doubt the existence of a God that cares about humans, or pays much attention to them.
Modern politics asserts several political views that have distinctly religious characteristics, such as that all humans are equal, and then enforces equality in the in sense of interchangeability. Modern films, plays, and books not merely refrain from doubting such views, but actively uphold them. Not one black who is a significant character is stereotypical, a quite improbable number of them are actively counterstereotypical. Almost all heroines and love interests are actively counter stereotypical, for example in that they quite improbably successfully beat up bad guys, the most notorious example being princess Leia improbably and unbelievably throttling Jabba the Hut.
You keep talking utter falsehood about past eras, which you predictably and utterly fail to substantiate with evidence.
I’ve already told you about Shakespeare needing to present Macbeth as a tyrant, and Jeanne D’arc as an evil witch. Here’s some more direct evidence of political censoring: Quotes from http://www.family-source.com/cache/144244/idx/0
“The best-known case of political censorship is that of Richard II. The play’s first edition had a scene that showed the deposition of Richard II, which “so infuriated Queen Elizabeth that she ordered it eliminated from all copies”
“In Henry IV, the name Oldcastle was changed to Falstaff after the intervention of the Cobham family, Sir John Oldcastle’s descendants, who were powerful in the Elizabethan court (”
Are you kidding us? With half the released movies being superhero flicks where people of special heritage and/or power have the fate of the whole world resting on their shoulders (X-Men, Superman, Batman, Spiderman), or other Messiah/Mighty Whitey types (e.g. Avatar, The Last Samurai, Dances With Wolves, The Matrix)?
She’s a princess. From a family of Jedis. You bring up Star Wars in the same paragraph that you claim that modern films portray all humans as equal and interchangeable, and you don’t even notice the fricking irony? Is Luke Skywalker interchangeable with Stormtrooper #4, or even with Lando Calrissian? Is Anakin Skywalker interchangeable with even Random Jedi #52?
Look, nearly every single sentence of yours ends up unsubstantiated, and disproven ludicrously easily. Can you just try to think of an obvious counterexample to your claims before you press “Comment” next time, so that you don’t waste our time typing said obvious counterexamples?
While the donation of Constantine was fraudulent, the donations of Charles the Hammer and Charles the great were real enough, but the church ruled those states under the holy Roman emperor, like a baron under a king—hence arguably not a theocracy. At least that is what they argued, though as the authority of the holy Roman emperor declined, the argument became less credible, and was accordingly condemned.
The very fact that papal secular authority was justified by the alleged Donation of Constantine reflects a profound lack of theocratic thinking. In a theocracy, a religious leader claims secular authority as inherent to his religious office—yet the popes and their champions considered it necessary to present their claim as inherited from a purely secular sovereign, despite the ultimate papal religious authority.
I don’t agree with his point at all. I’m just trying to preempt possible confusion if this thread ends up continuing—it’s helpful if everyone actually uses the term the same way.