All the other examples I can think of of what I might call political fiction—using fiction to convey serious ideas—are organizations/movements I have negative views of.
Just to pick a somewhat arbitrary example I was thinking about recently… have you ever read The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas?
Does it qualify as what you’re calling “political fiction”?
Do you associate it with any particular organizations/movements?
By happy coincidence I also read it recently. I’ve not seen it used to make political/philosophical arguments, so I don’t class it as such. To my mind the ending and indeed the whole story is more ambiguous than the examples I’ve been thinking of; if the intent was to push a particular view then it failed, at least in my case. (By contrast Brave New World probably did influence my view of utilitarianism, despite my best efforts to remain unmoved).
If I saw someone using it to argue for a position I’d probably think less of it or them, and on a purely aesthetic level I found it disappointing.
I guess maybe Permutation City is a positive example; it provides a useful explicit example of some things we want to make philosophical arguments about. Maybe because I felt it wasn’t making a value judgement—it was more like, well, scientific fiction.
Thinking about this some more, and rereading this thread, I’m realizing I’m more confused than I’d thought I was.
Initially, when you introduced the term “political fiction,” you glossed it as “using fiction to convey serious ideas.” Which is similar enough to what I had in mind that I was happy to use that phrase.
But then you say that you don’t class Omelas in this category, because it doesn’t successfully push a particular view. Which suggests that the category you have in mind isn’t just about conveying ideas, but rather about pushing a particular philosophical/political perspective—yes?
But then you say that you do class Permutation City in this category (and I would agree), and you approve of it. This actually surprises me… I would have thought, given what you’d said earlier, that you would object to PC on the grounds that it simply asserts a fictional universe in which various things are true, and could be misused as evidence that those things are in fact true in the real world. I’m glad you aren’t making that argument, as it suggests our views are actually closer than I’d originally thought (I would agree that it’s possible to misuse PC that way, as it is possible to misuse other fictional ideas, but that’s a separate issue).
And you further explain that PC isn’t making a value judgment… but that you still consider it an example of political fiction… which is consistent with your original definition of the term… but I don’t know how to reconcile it with your description of Omelas.
I’m trying to explore this as we go along; it’s very possible I’ve been incoherent.
I don’t class Omelas in any of these categories category because I’ve never seen it used in this kind of discussion, at all.
Permutation City was an example I only thought of in the last post. Fundamentally I feel like it belongs in a different cluster from these other examples (including the LW ones) - I’m trying to understand why, and I was suggesting that the value judgements might be the difference, but that’s little more than a guess.
I don’t class Omelas in any of these categories category because I’ve never seen it used in this kind of discussion, at all.
Well… OK. Let’s change that.
Omelas is a good illustration of the intuitive problems with a straight-up total-utilitarian approach to ethical philosophy. It’s clear that by any coherent metric, the benefits enjoyed as a consequence of that child’s suffering far outweigh the costs of that suffering. Nevertheless, the intuitive judgment of most people is that there’s something very wrong with this picture and that alleviating the child’s suffering would be a good thing.
OK… now that you’ve seen Omelas used to in a discussion about utilitarian moral philosophy, does your judgment about the story change?
Hmm. I was not fond of the story in any case, so this use would need to be particularly bad to diminish my opinion of it.
The fundamental lack of realism in the story now seems more important. Where before I was happy to suspend disbelief on the implausibility of a town that worked that way, if we’re going to apply actual philosophy it I find myself wanting a more rigorous explanation of how things work—why do people believe that comforting the child would damage the city?
Do I think using the story has made the discussion worse? Maybe; it’s hard to compare to a control in the specific instance. But I think in the general, average case philosophical discussions that use fictional examples turn out less well than those that don’t.
If I thought the use of the story had damaged the discussion, would that make me think less of the story or author? I think my somewhat weaselly (and nonutilitarian) answer is that intent matters here. If I discovered that a story I liked was actually intended allegorically, I think I’d think less of it (and to a certain extent this happened with Animal Farm, which I read naively at an early age and less naively a few years later, and thought less of it the second time). But if someone just happens to use a story I like in a philosophical argument, without there being anything inherent to the story or author that invited this kind of use, I don’t think that would change my opinion.
From my perspective, Omelas does a fine job of doing what I’m claiming fiction is useful for in these sorts of discussions… it makes it easy to refer to a scenario that illustrates a point that would otherwise be far more complicated to even define.
For example, I can, in a conversation about total-utilitarianism, say “Well, so what if anything is wrong with Omelas?” to you, and you can tell me whether you think there’s anything wrong with Omelas and if so what, and we’ve communicated a lot more efficiently than if we hadn’t both read the story.
Similarly, around LW I can refer to something as an Invisible Dragon in the Garage and that clarifies what might otherwise be a hopelessly muddled conversation.
Now, you’re certainly right that while having identified a position is a necessary first step to defending that position, those are two different thigns, and that soemtimes people use fiction to do the former and then act as though they’d done the latter when they haven’t.
This is a mistake.
(Also, since you bring it up, I consider Brave New World far too complicated a story to serve very well in this role… there’s too much going on. Which is a good thing for fiction, and I endorse it utterly, since the primary function of fiction for me is not to provide useful shortcuts in discussions. However, some fiction performs this function and I think that’s a fine thing too.)
Just to pick a somewhat arbitrary example I was thinking about recently… have you ever read The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas?
Does it qualify as what you’re calling “political fiction”?
Do you associate it with any particular organizations/movements?
By happy coincidence I also read it recently. I’ve not seen it used to make political/philosophical arguments, so I don’t class it as such. To my mind the ending and indeed the whole story is more ambiguous than the examples I’ve been thinking of; if the intent was to push a particular view then it failed, at least in my case. (By contrast Brave New World probably did influence my view of utilitarianism, despite my best efforts to remain unmoved).
If I saw someone using it to argue for a position I’d probably think less of it or them, and on a purely aesthetic level I found it disappointing.
I guess maybe Permutation City is a positive example; it provides a useful explicit example of some things we want to make philosophical arguments about. Maybe because I felt it wasn’t making a value judgement—it was more like, well, scientific fiction.
Thinking about this some more, and rereading this thread, I’m realizing I’m more confused than I’d thought I was.
Initially, when you introduced the term “political fiction,” you glossed it as “using fiction to convey serious ideas.” Which is similar enough to what I had in mind that I was happy to use that phrase.
But then you say that you don’t class Omelas in this category, because it doesn’t successfully push a particular view. Which suggests that the category you have in mind isn’t just about conveying ideas, but rather about pushing a particular philosophical/political perspective—yes?
But then you say that you do class Permutation City in this category (and I would agree), and you approve of it. This actually surprises me… I would have thought, given what you’d said earlier, that you would object to PC on the grounds that it simply asserts a fictional universe in which various things are true, and could be misused as evidence that those things are in fact true in the real world. I’m glad you aren’t making that argument, as it suggests our views are actually closer than I’d originally thought (I would agree that it’s possible to misuse PC that way, as it is possible to misuse other fictional ideas, but that’s a separate issue).
And you further explain that PC isn’t making a value judgment… but that you still consider it an example of political fiction… which is consistent with your original definition of the term… but I don’t know how to reconcile it with your description of Omelas.
So… I’m genuinely confused.
I’m trying to explore this as we go along; it’s very possible I’ve been incoherent.
I don’t class Omelas in any of these categories category because I’ve never seen it used in this kind of discussion, at all.
Permutation City was an example I only thought of in the last post. Fundamentally I feel like it belongs in a different cluster from these other examples (including the LW ones) - I’m trying to understand why, and I was suggesting that the value judgements might be the difference, but that’s little more than a guess.
Well… OK. Let’s change that.
OK… now that you’ve seen Omelas used to in a discussion about utilitarian moral philosophy, does your judgment about the story change?
Hmm. I was not fond of the story in any case, so this use would need to be particularly bad to diminish my opinion of it.
The fundamental lack of realism in the story now seems more important. Where before I was happy to suspend disbelief on the implausibility of a town that worked that way, if we’re going to apply actual philosophy it I find myself wanting a more rigorous explanation of how things work—why do people believe that comforting the child would damage the city?
Do I think using the story has made the discussion worse? Maybe; it’s hard to compare to a control in the specific instance. But I think in the general, average case philosophical discussions that use fictional examples turn out less well than those that don’t.
If I thought the use of the story had damaged the discussion, would that make me think less of the story or author? I think my somewhat weaselly (and nonutilitarian) answer is that intent matters here. If I discovered that a story I liked was actually intended allegorically, I think I’d think less of it (and to a certain extent this happened with Animal Farm, which I read naively at an early age and less naively a few years later, and thought less of it the second time). But if someone just happens to use a story I like in a philosophical argument, without there being anything inherent to the story or author that invited this kind of use, I don’t think that would change my opinion.
OK, fair enough. Thanks for clarifying your position.
Interesting.
From my perspective, Omelas does a fine job of doing what I’m claiming fiction is useful for in these sorts of discussions… it makes it easy to refer to a scenario that illustrates a point that would otherwise be far more complicated to even define.
For example, I can, in a conversation about total-utilitarianism, say “Well, so what if anything is wrong with Omelas?” to you, and you can tell me whether you think there’s anything wrong with Omelas and if so what, and we’ve communicated a lot more efficiently than if we hadn’t both read the story.
Similarly, around LW I can refer to something as an Invisible Dragon in the Garage and that clarifies what might otherwise be a hopelessly muddled conversation.
Now, you’re certainly right that while having identified a position is a necessary first step to defending that position, those are two different thigns, and that soemtimes people use fiction to do the former and then act as though they’d done the latter when they haven’t.
This is a mistake.
(Also, since you bring it up, I consider Brave New World far too complicated a story to serve very well in this role… there’s too much going on. Which is a good thing for fiction, and I endorse it utterly, since the primary function of fiction for me is not to provide useful shortcuts in discussions. However, some fiction performs this function and I think that’s a fine thing too.)