When people ask me what religion I hail from (as far as I’m concerened, religion or religation is nothing more or less than RED Team VS BLU Team style affiliation, with, in the absence of exterior threats, a tendency to splinter and call heresy on each other), I tell them “secular humanist”. As far as I’m concerned, LW is just a particularly interesting denomination of that faith. “We’re the only religion whose beliefs are wholly grounded in empirical experience, and which, instead of praying for things to get better, go out and make them so”.
I am aware of religious denominations which advocate doing good works as a route to personal salvation, but I honestly can’t think of any religious branch I’m aware of which advocates good works on the basis of “For goodness’ sake, look at this place, it’s seriously in need of fixing up.”
So, just to make sure I understand the category you’re describing here… if, for example, an organization like the Unitarian Universalist Association of Congregations asserts as one of its guiding principles “The goal of world community with peace, liberty, and justice for all;” and does not make a statement one way or the other about the salvatory nature of those principles, is that an example of the category?
I guess I’d say that it counts if you’re willing to treat Unitarian Universalism as an actual religious denomination. Whether it counts or not would probably depend on how you identify such things, since it’s missing qualities which one might consider important, such as formal doctrines.
In my experience Unitarian Universalism, at least in its modern form, is mainly a conglomeration of liberal progressive ideals used as an umbrella to unite people with religious beliefs ranging from moralistic therapeutic deism to outright atheism.
All of the Unitarian Universalists I’ve known well enough to ask have also identified themselves as secular humanists, so I certainly wouldn’t regard it as an alternative to secular humanism which carries that value.
Whether it counts or not would probably depend on how you identify such things, since it’s missing qualities which one might consider important, such as formal doctrines.
Atheists tend to identify religions as creeds: your religion is about what you believe. By this way of thinking, a Catholic is any person who believes thus-and-so; a Buddhist is any person who believes this-and-that; a Muslim is any person who believes the-other-thing; and so on. Having correct belief (orthodoxy) is indeed significant to many religious people, but that’s not the same as it being what religion is about.
Protestant Christianity asserts sola fide, the principle that believers are justified (their sins removed) by dint of their faith in Jesus Christ. The first pillar of Islam is the shahadah, a declaration of belief. One of the first questions people ask about any new-to-them religion is, “What do you believe in?”, and discussions of religions often involve clarifying points of belief, such as “Buddhists don’t believe the Buddha is a god.” Examples such as these may lead many atheists to think that religion is about belief.
Another way of looking at religion, though, is that religion is about practice: what you do when you think you’re doing religion. The significant thing that makes your religion is not your religious beliefs, but your religious habits or practices. You can assert the Catechism all day long … but if you don’t go to Mass, pray, take communion, and confess your sins to a priest, you’re not a central example of a Catholic. And the other four pillars of Islam aren’t about belief, but about practice.
And something else to consider is that religion is also about who you do it with — a community. Religion is usually done with some reference to a local community (a church, coven, what-have-you) and a larger community that includes other local groups as well as teachers, leaders, recognized figures. It is this community that teaches and propagates the beliefs. People are considered to be members of the religion by dint of their membership in this community (possibly formally recognized, as by baptism) even if they do not yet know the beliefs they are “supposed to” have. Most Christians have never read the whole Bible, after all.
UU is one group I happen to know well enough to expect that its members do in fact advocate good works on the basis of good works being a good thing, so if it’s a counterexample, that’s easy. But if it isn’t because it isn’t actually a religion, OK.
I think something similar is true of Congregationalists, from my limited experience of them… but then, all the Congregationalists I’ve known well enough to ask have identified themselves as agnostics and atheists, so perhaps they don’t count either.
But I have a clearer notion of what your category is now; thank you for the clarification.
Does it seem to you that you and Ritalin (in the comment I replied to) mean the same thing by “religion”?
As far as I know, they’re all about giving up your ego in one way or another and happily wait for death or the endtimes. The most proactive they get is trying to spread this attitude around (but not too much; they still need other people to actually pay for their contemplative lifestyle). Making things better, improving the standing of humankind, cancelling the apocalypse? A futile, arrogant, doomed effort.
When people ask me what religion I hail from (as far as I’m concerened, religion or religation is nothing more or less than RED Team VS BLU Team style affiliation, with, in the absence of exterior threats, a tendency to splinter and call heresy on each other), I tell them “secular humanist”. As far as I’m concerned, LW is just a particularly interesting denomination of that faith. “We’re the only religion whose beliefs are wholly grounded in empirical experience, and which, instead of praying for things to get better, go out and make them so”.
Are there in fact no (“other”) religions which endorse making things better?
I am aware of religious denominations which advocate doing good works as a route to personal salvation, but I honestly can’t think of any religious branch I’m aware of which advocates good works on the basis of “For goodness’ sake, look at this place, it’s seriously in need of fixing up.”
So, just to make sure I understand the category you’re describing here… if, for example, an organization like the Unitarian Universalist Association of Congregations asserts as one of its guiding principles “The goal of world community with peace, liberty, and justice for all;” and does not make a statement one way or the other about the salvatory nature of those principles, is that an example of the category?
I guess I’d say that it counts if you’re willing to treat Unitarian Universalism as an actual religious denomination. Whether it counts or not would probably depend on how you identify such things, since it’s missing qualities which one might consider important, such as formal doctrines.
In my experience Unitarian Universalism, at least in its modern form, is mainly a conglomeration of liberal progressive ideals used as an umbrella to unite people with religious beliefs ranging from moralistic therapeutic deism to outright atheism.
All of the Unitarian Universalists I’ve known well enough to ask have also identified themselves as secular humanists, so I certainly wouldn’t regard it as an alternative to secular humanism which carries that value.
Atheists tend to identify religions as creeds: your religion is about what you believe. By this way of thinking, a Catholic is any person who believes thus-and-so; a Buddhist is any person who believes this-and-that; a Muslim is any person who believes the-other-thing; and so on. Having correct belief (orthodoxy) is indeed significant to many religious people, but that’s not the same as it being what religion is about.
Protestant Christianity asserts sola fide, the principle that believers are justified (their sins removed) by dint of their faith in Jesus Christ. The first pillar of Islam is the shahadah, a declaration of belief. One of the first questions people ask about any new-to-them religion is, “What do you believe in?”, and discussions of religions often involve clarifying points of belief, such as “Buddhists don’t believe the Buddha is a god.” Examples such as these may lead many atheists to think that religion is about belief.
Another way of looking at religion, though, is that religion is about practice: what you do when you think you’re doing religion. The significant thing that makes your religion is not your religious beliefs, but your religious habits or practices. You can assert the Catechism all day long … but if you don’t go to Mass, pray, take communion, and confess your sins to a priest, you’re not a central example of a Catholic. And the other four pillars of Islam aren’t about belief, but about practice.
And something else to consider is that religion is also about who you do it with — a community. Religion is usually done with some reference to a local community (a church, coven, what-have-you) and a larger community that includes other local groups as well as teachers, leaders, recognized figures. It is this community that teaches and propagates the beliefs. People are considered to be members of the religion by dint of their membership in this community (possibly formally recognized, as by baptism) even if they do not yet know the beliefs they are “supposed to” have. Most Christians have never read the whole Bible, after all.
Well, that’s why I’m asking the question.
UU is one group I happen to know well enough to expect that its members do in fact advocate good works on the basis of good works being a good thing, so if it’s a counterexample, that’s easy. But if it isn’t because it isn’t actually a religion, OK.
I think something similar is true of Congregationalists, from my limited experience of them… but then, all the Congregationalists I’ve known well enough to ask have identified themselves as agnostics and atheists, so perhaps they don’t count either.
But I have a clearer notion of what your category is now; thank you for the clarification.
Does it seem to you that you and Ritalin (in the comment I replied to) mean the same thing by “religion”?
I can’t speak for Ritalin, but I’d speculate that we’d both identify it as requiring certain patterns of belief as well as affiliation.
As far as I know, they’re all about giving up your ego in one way or another and happily wait for death or the endtimes. The most proactive they get is trying to spread this attitude around (but not too much; they still need other people to actually pay for their contemplative lifestyle). Making things better, improving the standing of humankind, cancelling the apocalypse? A futile, arrogant, doomed effort.
OK.