I’m not an US citizen, so my knowledge of US politics may not be deep enough to grasp some of the subleties of the topic, but my overall impression was that unless you are very rich, it is in your best interest—and thus clever—to be liberal.
But I guess this part of the discussion borders “Politics is a Mind-Killer”, so if you wish to inform me why it isn’t clever to be liberal, it’s probably best if we take the discussion to PMs.
I’m not an US citizen, so my knowledge of US politics may not be deep enough to grasp some of the subleties of the topic, but my overall impression was that unless you are very rich, it is in your best interest—and thus clever—to be liberal.
It’s weird how often people express this idea.
Since the marginal effect of your political affiliation upon the policies of a nation of 300 Million people is trivial, we shouldn’t really expect it to be “in your interest” to vote for the bloc that promises you income transfers/lower taxes, etc. Rather, it is “clever” for people to vote their affiliations (i.e. what their family, friends, and coworkers vote for). This model actually correlates with the way people actually vote.
Rather, it is “clever” for people to vote their affiliations (i.e. what their family, friends, and coworkers vote for).
It is clever to say that you vote your affiliations.
This model actually correlates with the way people actually vote.
Our ‘voting’ instincts come from a (slightly misapplied) execution of strategies that are adapted for political environments where support is giving via public declaration rather than anonymous ballot. At a national and global level it may well be one of humanity’s greatest weaknesses.
It is clever to say that you vote your affiliations.
The rationalist Bradley effect, if you will.
There was a clever exploit of this trick in the first post-WW2 Italian general election: the opposing choices were a Communist-Socialist alliance versus a Catholic-led conservative coalition, and one of the strongest Catholic slogans was: In the voting booth, God sees you—Stalin doesn’t!
Local government elections do exist. In those contexts it might make more sense to vote on policy issues. But in practice, most local government policy issues have little to do with the standard left/right divide. Moreover, the strength of affiliation issues becomes even more severe when people actually know the candidates.
(It is even more clever to vote for the bloc that is likely to provide a more favourable government, while displaying in public the affiliation that has the best social returns. The rationalist Bradley effect, if you will.)
I’m from Germany. I got the impression that liberal is used as synonymous with “Democrat” in the american political discourse, and that the Democrats would be roughly center-right in german political terms.
Best interest isn’t always that same as economic self-interest. If one cares more about certain social and cultural issues more than how much money one has it might make sense to vote conservative. Also, the issue of how well the policies advocated by liberals maximize the economic well-being of the poor is contested.
I am a U.S. citizen, and the subtleties of the subject often escape me as well. However, I suggest that the American rich tend to be “liberal” (meaning left-of-center in the American spectrum). This would include both what passes for our aristocracy (see, the Kennedys and Rockefellers) and our nouveau riche. An entrepreneurial blogger has launched a small industry based on the preferences of fashionable left-leaning upper-middle-class white hipsters.
If anything, the American right wing is a middle- to lower-middle-class phenomenon.
The American rich tend to vote Republican. In poor states like Mississippi there is a strong correlation between higher income and voting Republican, but in rich states like Connecticut there is a much weaker correlation between income and party.
I see the first graph on this site defines “rich” as $150,000 in income, and on that basis said “richer people continue to lean Republican.” However, the same page showed that the pattern broke down as incomes rose above about $200,000 in annual income. That second graph suggested that the really rich would not tend to vote Republican.
I’d summarize the graph as: probability of voting Republican increases with income up to $70,000 or so, where it reaches a plateau.
There are some hints of a pattern above that, but within the income range where they have data there are only slight changes which are inconsistent from election to election. What’s clear from their graphs is that someone with a $250,000 income has about the same chance of voting Republican as someone with a $75,000 income, and both are much more likely to vote Republican than someone with an income under $30,000.
Rich northeastern states tend to be relatively Democratic, and there is only a weak relationship between income and party within those states. The upper-middle-class liberals in that region are the main target of Stuff White People Like. But in the country as a whole there is a clear relationship between income and voting Republican, at least over most of the income distribution (although they don’t have the data to say what happens within the richest 1%).
That seems unfair given that the viewpoint the OP discussed as surprising is one that is far from the mainstream on any end of the political spectrum. Would you consider it to be too potentially mind-killing if someone mentioned say Conservapedia? Where do you draw the line?
Although political discussions could be problematic for several reasons, I don’t encourage downvoting just because a post comes close to the forbidden territory. It seems that the present discussion could have cleared some misconceptions and have a positive effect. There are few strongly upvoted comments, like this one, which seem to indicate that partial agreement can be found.
My sense is the comments were upvoted because they did a good job explaining the problems with the original post, not because they’re likely to be of much lasting value outside of that context. Partial agreement can be found, but so can flame wars. Everything has upsides; the question is whether they outweigh the downsides.
I’m not an US citizen, so my knowledge of US politics may not be deep enough to grasp some of the subleties of the topic, but my overall impression was that unless you are very rich, it is in your best interest—and thus clever—to be liberal.
But I guess this part of the discussion borders “Politics is a Mind-Killer”, so if you wish to inform me why it isn’t clever to be liberal, it’s probably best if we take the discussion to PMs.
It’s weird how often people express this idea.
Since the marginal effect of your political affiliation upon the policies of a nation of 300 Million people is trivial, we shouldn’t really expect it to be “in your interest” to vote for the bloc that promises you income transfers/lower taxes, etc. Rather, it is “clever” for people to vote their affiliations (i.e. what their family, friends, and coworkers vote for). This model actually correlates with the way people actually vote.
It is clever to say that you vote your affiliations.
Our ‘voting’ instincts come from a (slightly misapplied) execution of strategies that are adapted for political environments where support is giving via public declaration rather than anonymous ballot. At a national and global level it may well be one of humanity’s greatest weaknesses.
The rationalist Bradley effect, if you will.
There was a clever exploit of this trick in the first post-WW2 Italian general election: the opposing choices were a Communist-Socialist alliance versus a Catholic-led conservative coalition, and one of the strongest Catholic slogans was: In the voting booth, God sees you—Stalin doesn’t!
Brilliant anecdote, I’ll use that one. Thanks. :)
Local government elections do exist. In those contexts it might make more sense to vote on policy issues. But in practice, most local government policy issues have little to do with the standard left/right divide. Moreover, the strength of affiliation issues becomes even more severe when people actually know the candidates.
(It is even more clever to vote for the bloc that is likely to provide a more favourable government, while displaying in public the affiliation that has the best social returns. The rationalist Bradley effect, if you will.)
First of all, which country are you from? The word ‘liberal’ means very different things in the political discourse of America and Europe.
I’m from Germany. I got the impression that liberal is used as synonymous with “Democrat” in the american political discourse, and that the Democrats would be roughly center-right in german political terms.
Best interest isn’t always that same as economic self-interest. If one cares more about certain social and cultural issues more than how much money one has it might make sense to vote conservative. Also, the issue of how well the policies advocated by liberals maximize the economic well-being of the poor is contested.
I am a U.S. citizen, and the subtleties of the subject often escape me as well. However, I suggest that the American rich tend to be “liberal” (meaning left-of-center in the American spectrum). This would include both what passes for our aristocracy (see, the Kennedys and Rockefellers) and our nouveau riche. An entrepreneurial blogger has launched a small industry based on the preferences of fashionable left-leaning upper-middle-class white hipsters.
If anything, the American right wing is a middle- to lower-middle-class phenomenon.
The American rich tend to vote Republican. In poor states like Mississippi there is a strong correlation between higher income and voting Republican, but in rich states like Connecticut there is a much weaker correlation between income and party.
I see the first graph on this site defines “rich” as $150,000 in income, and on that basis said “richer people continue to lean Republican.” However, the same page showed that the pattern broke down as incomes rose above about $200,000 in annual income. That second graph suggested that the really rich would not tend to vote Republican.
I’d summarize the graph as: probability of voting Republican increases with income up to $70,000 or so, where it reaches a plateau.
There are some hints of a pattern above that, but within the income range where they have data there are only slight changes which are inconsistent from election to election. What’s clear from their graphs is that someone with a $250,000 income has about the same chance of voting Republican as someone with a $75,000 income, and both are much more likely to vote Republican than someone with an income under $30,000.
Rich northeastern states tend to be relatively Democratic, and there is only a weak relationship between income and party within those states. The upper-middle-class liberals in that region are the main target of Stuff White People Like. But in the country as a whole there is a clear relationship between income and voting Republican, at least over most of the income distribution (although they don’t have the data to say what happens within the richest 1%).
Edit: I misread the post as “if you are rich” and not “unless you are very rich.”
I think the original post fell well within “politics is the mind killer”, and voted it down for that reason.
That seems unfair given that the viewpoint the OP discussed as surprising is one that is far from the mainstream on any end of the political spectrum. Would you consider it to be too potentially mind-killing if someone mentioned say Conservapedia? Where do you draw the line?
The post was about people who don’t think like the original poster more broadly.
Although political discussions could be problematic for several reasons, I don’t encourage downvoting just because a post comes close to the forbidden territory. It seems that the present discussion could have cleared some misconceptions and have a positive effect. There are few strongly upvoted comments, like this one, which seem to indicate that partial agreement can be found.
My sense is the comments were upvoted because they did a good job explaining the problems with the original post, not because they’re likely to be of much lasting value outside of that context. Partial agreement can be found, but so can flame wars. Everything has upsides; the question is whether they outweigh the downsides.
I also don’t like to talk about politics here. It was my main point. Don’t like Elisabeth’s post. Over.