That actually reminded me of my parents. My dad is not allowed to say that he dislikes a dish prepared by my mom, even if asked for his opinion. Whenever I ask him if he liked one of my dishes, if I notice any hesitation I usually qualify it with “You can say no”.
Wow. Yeah, see, that’s exactly the kind of relationship dynamic of which the very thought horrifies me.
I, too, sometimes make similar comments to people to convey that yes, I really do want their feedback on my cooking/baking, because getting better is important to me. Empty praise is worthless to me.
Empty praise is actually useful, for absence of evidence reasons. Especially if the work you want feedback on is the type that that person should be able to effectively critique.
Once you start considering empty praise to be evidence of dislike, you may also want to fake people into thinking you think they like things, because they are probably modeling you using themselves when they decide that lying is best for you. They are not truth-obsessed rationalists, so they probably prefer to think their attempt to trick you was successful. Being asked for a critique of someone’s work can be uncomfortable, and thinking you’ve hurt their feelings is even more uncomfortable.
Ok, that’s beyond my ability to keep a chain of models-within-models straight in my head. Could you elaborate?
Actually, you know what — scratch that. The more salient point, I think, is that having to strategize basic conversation to that extent is a) much too hard for my preference, and more importantly, b) something I definitely do not want to be doing with close friends and loved ones. I mean, good god. That sounds exhausting. If someone forces me to go through such knots of reasoning when I talk to them, then I just don’t want to talk to them.
I wouldn’t want to be in that kind of relationship long-term either. But I still have to interact with normal people too, and enjoyment is often not the goal there.
Edit: also family, whose company you don’t want to discard entirely because of a few flaws like playing social games like this.
Sorry if I said it unclearly, but all I meant was, “make them think they tricked you.”
No, empty praise is still worthless, because Said’s cooking and baking not perfect, and there is with near certainty some small flaw, some awkward stylistic choice that could use improvement. Best is the gentle nitpicking of these flaws with a prepended (This is amazing, but) and with the consequent inference that the bread/food/what have you is actually already REALLY GOOD.
I agree with your point but I think you may have misunderstood Mestroyer’s comment (totally understandable, as I found his comment difficult to parse, myself).
I take from your response that you interpret Mestroyer as referring to a scenario where there’s nothing in my work to criticize, and I ask for feedback and receive praise, and correctly interpret the absence of criticism as evidence for there being nothing to criticize.
I don’t actually think that’s the scenario Mestroyer had in mind, based on his second paragraph. (Or was it? If so, then he ought to adjust his terminology, because the term “empty praise” is not appropriate in that context.)
I didn’t really have the particular situation of pianoforte611 in mind. I am sure there are many families where the communication between spouses is ritualized, lacks meaningful content, no one can actually say what they really feel, and is a mess in general.
My point was—and I should have phrased it better—is that, for example, a prohibition of criticizing cooking, may be a symptom of such a dysfunctional relationship, but does not necessarily have to be. Relationships tend to have many implicit rules about what means what. I can easily imagine a good, healthy, intimate relationship where you just can’t tell your girlfriend “Oh, today you look terrible” in the morning even if she, in fact, does look terrible. And that doesn’t sound horrible to me.
To make this point yet again[1], there’s a difference between not wanting (or outright forbidding) spontaneous criticism, to forbidding criticism that is provided when asked. In pianoforte611′s example, his dad is forbidden from saying the cooking’s bad even if he’s asked for his opinion.
Telling your girlfriend “Oh, today you look terrible”, apropos of nothing, seems like a reasonable thing for said girlfriend to object to. If she asks you “How do I look today? Please be honest”, and then you’re not allowed to answer honestly, lest you break the Rules Of The Relationship — that seems obviously dysfunctional to me.
[1] Sorry if I sound frustrated, but people seem to keep ignoring this distinction.
Edit: Upon a bit more consideration, pianoforte611′s example seems even more dysfunctional than at first glance. I mean, if you forbid someone from criticizing you even in response to a request for an opinion, and both parties are aware of this prohibition, what does it signify when you go ahead and ask them for their opinion anyway? It seems like a really ugly power dynamic: one person says “Well, what do you think of my cooking, honey? Hm? Be honest, now...”; all the while knowing full well that the other person can’t answer honestly, lest they break The Rules; holding this over the other person; and fully expecting, correctly, that the other person will dutifully lie, while dutifully pretending that they’re telling the truth — in other words, will submit to the first person’s display of dominance in the relationship.
Of course that could be an exaggeration in the particular case of pianoforte611′s family. But I’ve actually seen this exact dynamic play out in real life, and it’s a common enough cultural script, as offered up regularly by e.g. Hollywood.
If she asks you “How do I look today? Please be honest”, and then you’re not allowed to answer honestly, lest you break the Rules Of The Relationship — that seems obviously dysfunctional to me.
That depends. Words are only one of many levels of communication between a couple. You should understand your girlfriend enough to know when she actually means “Please be honest” and when she doesn’t even if she says the same words and their literal meaning is “be honest”. Again—it may well be a symptom of a dysfunctional relationship but it does not automatically have to be.
A lot of communication is non-verbal. A lot of meaning flies across regardless of which words are being said. I feel it is a mistake to focus solely on the literal meaning of the words pronounced.
Well, ok. I suppose if people are ok with having relationship where communication is that complicated, and it works for them, then far be it from me to speak against that. (Not being sarcastic or passive-aggressive here; I generally genuinely don’t care how other people conduct their relationships so long as it doesn’t affect me.)
But I certainly am not interested in being with someone who would say “Please be honest”, but then expect me not to be honest, but only sometimes, and then expect me to know when is which. Nooo sir, I surely am not.
That actually reminded me of my parents. My dad is not allowed to say that he dislikes a dish prepared by my mom, even if asked for his opinion. Whenever I ask him if he liked one of my dishes, if I notice any hesitation I usually qualify it with “You can say no”.
Wow. Yeah, see, that’s exactly the kind of relationship dynamic of which the very thought horrifies me.
I, too, sometimes make similar comments to people to convey that yes, I really do want their feedback on my cooking/baking, because getting better is important to me. Empty praise is worthless to me.
Empty praise is actually useful, for absence of evidence reasons. Especially if the work you want feedback on is the type that that person should be able to effectively critique.
Once you start considering empty praise to be evidence of dislike, you may also want to fake people into thinking you think they like things, because they are probably modeling you using themselves when they decide that lying is best for you. They are not truth-obsessed rationalists, so they probably prefer to think their attempt to trick you was successful. Being asked for a critique of someone’s work can be uncomfortable, and thinking you’ve hurt their feelings is even more uncomfortable.
Ok, that’s beyond my ability to keep a chain of models-within-models straight in my head. Could you elaborate?
Actually, you know what — scratch that. The more salient point, I think, is that having to strategize basic conversation to that extent is a) much too hard for my preference, and more importantly, b) something I definitely do not want to be doing with close friends and loved ones. I mean, good god. That sounds exhausting. If someone forces me to go through such knots of reasoning when I talk to them, then I just don’t want to talk to them.
I wouldn’t want to be in that kind of relationship long-term either. But I still have to interact with normal people too, and enjoyment is often not the goal there.
Edit: also family, whose company you don’t want to discard entirely because of a few flaws like playing social games like this.
Sorry if I said it unclearly, but all I meant was, “make them think they tricked you.”
No, empty praise is still worthless, because Said’s cooking and baking not perfect, and there is with near certainty some small flaw, some awkward stylistic choice that could use improvement. Best is the gentle nitpicking of these flaws with a prepended (This is amazing, but) and with the consequent inference that the bread/food/what have you is actually already REALLY GOOD.
There is value to knowing the quality of your work apart from knowing ways to improve it.
For example, “Should I personally cook something for this upcoming potluck, or should I let my spouse do it?”
The problem is that knowing how well you cook doesn’t really affect who should cook past a certain basic point of competence, as far as I can tell.
I agree with your point but I think you may have misunderstood Mestroyer’s comment (totally understandable, as I found his comment difficult to parse, myself).
I take from your response that you interpret Mestroyer as referring to a scenario where there’s nothing in my work to criticize, and I ask for feedback and receive praise, and correctly interpret the absence of criticism as evidence for there being nothing to criticize.
I don’t actually think that’s the scenario Mestroyer had in mind, based on his second paragraph. (Or was it? If so, then he ought to adjust his terminology, because the term “empty praise” is not appropriate in that context.)
Not if it’s explicit, well-understood and is just one of the rules of how the game is played.
There are LOTS of way to convey meaning besides just blurting it out.
Mmmnope, that definitely doesn’t change the horror.
(I’m not sure how to take what looks to be a correction to a statement about my feelings about something. Regardless, it’s misplaced.)
That was just a shorthand way of saying “I am surprised that you feel this way given that I see the world in a way that...”
Fair enough. In that case, to clarify my response:
I acknowledge that your view of things is plausible in many cases; taking said view does not change my feelings about the situations in question.
Well, let me clarify, too, then :-)
I didn’t really have the particular situation of pianoforte611 in mind. I am sure there are many families where the communication between spouses is ritualized, lacks meaningful content, no one can actually say what they really feel, and is a mess in general.
My point was—and I should have phrased it better—is that, for example, a prohibition of criticizing cooking, may be a symptom of such a dysfunctional relationship, but does not necessarily have to be. Relationships tend to have many implicit rules about what means what. I can easily imagine a good, healthy, intimate relationship where you just can’t tell your girlfriend “Oh, today you look terrible” in the morning even if she, in fact, does look terrible. And that doesn’t sound horrible to me.
To make this point yet again[1], there’s a difference between not wanting (or outright forbidding) spontaneous criticism, to forbidding criticism that is provided when asked. In pianoforte611′s example, his dad is forbidden from saying the cooking’s bad even if he’s asked for his opinion.
Telling your girlfriend “Oh, today you look terrible”, apropos of nothing, seems like a reasonable thing for said girlfriend to object to. If she asks you “How do I look today? Please be honest”, and then you’re not allowed to answer honestly, lest you break the Rules Of The Relationship — that seems obviously dysfunctional to me.
[1] Sorry if I sound frustrated, but people seem to keep ignoring this distinction.
Edit: Upon a bit more consideration, pianoforte611′s example seems even more dysfunctional than at first glance. I mean, if you forbid someone from criticizing you even in response to a request for an opinion, and both parties are aware of this prohibition, what does it signify when you go ahead and ask them for their opinion anyway? It seems like a really ugly power dynamic: one person says “Well, what do you think of my cooking, honey? Hm? Be honest, now...”; all the while knowing full well that the other person can’t answer honestly, lest they break The Rules; holding this over the other person; and fully expecting, correctly, that the other person will dutifully lie, while dutifully pretending that they’re telling the truth — in other words, will submit to the first person’s display of dominance in the relationship.
Of course that could be an exaggeration in the particular case of pianoforte611′s family. But I’ve actually seen this exact dynamic play out in real life, and it’s a common enough cultural script, as offered up regularly by e.g. Hollywood.
That depends. Words are only one of many levels of communication between a couple. You should understand your girlfriend enough to know when she actually means “Please be honest” and when she doesn’t even if she says the same words and their literal meaning is “be honest”. Again—it may well be a symptom of a dysfunctional relationship but it does not automatically have to be.
A lot of communication is non-verbal. A lot of meaning flies across regardless of which words are being said. I feel it is a mistake to focus solely on the literal meaning of the words pronounced.
Well, ok. I suppose if people are ok with having relationship where communication is that complicated, and it works for them, then far be it from me to speak against that. (Not being sarcastic or passive-aggressive here; I generally genuinely don’t care how other people conduct their relationships so long as it doesn’t affect me.)
But I certainly am not interested in being with someone who would say “Please be honest”, but then expect me not to be honest, but only sometimes, and then expect me to know when is which. Nooo sir, I surely am not.
People come as complete packages :-) Some things maybe deal-breakers but some things may be compensated by other advantages.
Oh, and communication is complicated.
I refer you to this comment thread and also this comment here.