I didn’t really have the particular situation of pianoforte611 in mind. I am sure there are many families where the communication between spouses is ritualized, lacks meaningful content, no one can actually say what they really feel, and is a mess in general.
My point was—and I should have phrased it better—is that, for example, a prohibition of criticizing cooking, may be a symptom of such a dysfunctional relationship, but does not necessarily have to be. Relationships tend to have many implicit rules about what means what. I can easily imagine a good, healthy, intimate relationship where you just can’t tell your girlfriend “Oh, today you look terrible” in the morning even if she, in fact, does look terrible. And that doesn’t sound horrible to me.
To make this point yet again[1], there’s a difference between not wanting (or outright forbidding) spontaneous criticism, to forbidding criticism that is provided when asked. In pianoforte611′s example, his dad is forbidden from saying the cooking’s bad even if he’s asked for his opinion.
Telling your girlfriend “Oh, today you look terrible”, apropos of nothing, seems like a reasonable thing for said girlfriend to object to. If she asks you “How do I look today? Please be honest”, and then you’re not allowed to answer honestly, lest you break the Rules Of The Relationship — that seems obviously dysfunctional to me.
[1] Sorry if I sound frustrated, but people seem to keep ignoring this distinction.
Edit: Upon a bit more consideration, pianoforte611′s example seems even more dysfunctional than at first glance. I mean, if you forbid someone from criticizing you even in response to a request for an opinion, and both parties are aware of this prohibition, what does it signify when you go ahead and ask them for their opinion anyway? It seems like a really ugly power dynamic: one person says “Well, what do you think of my cooking, honey? Hm? Be honest, now...”; all the while knowing full well that the other person can’t answer honestly, lest they break The Rules; holding this over the other person; and fully expecting, correctly, that the other person will dutifully lie, while dutifully pretending that they’re telling the truth — in other words, will submit to the first person’s display of dominance in the relationship.
Of course that could be an exaggeration in the particular case of pianoforte611′s family. But I’ve actually seen this exact dynamic play out in real life, and it’s a common enough cultural script, as offered up regularly by e.g. Hollywood.
If she asks you “How do I look today? Please be honest”, and then you’re not allowed to answer honestly, lest you break the Rules Of The Relationship — that seems obviously dysfunctional to me.
That depends. Words are only one of many levels of communication between a couple. You should understand your girlfriend enough to know when she actually means “Please be honest” and when she doesn’t even if she says the same words and their literal meaning is “be honest”. Again—it may well be a symptom of a dysfunctional relationship but it does not automatically have to be.
A lot of communication is non-verbal. A lot of meaning flies across regardless of which words are being said. I feel it is a mistake to focus solely on the literal meaning of the words pronounced.
Well, ok. I suppose if people are ok with having relationship where communication is that complicated, and it works for them, then far be it from me to speak against that. (Not being sarcastic or passive-aggressive here; I generally genuinely don’t care how other people conduct their relationships so long as it doesn’t affect me.)
But I certainly am not interested in being with someone who would say “Please be honest”, but then expect me not to be honest, but only sometimes, and then expect me to know when is which. Nooo sir, I surely am not.
Mmmnope, that definitely doesn’t change the horror.
(I’m not sure how to take what looks to be a correction to a statement about my feelings about something. Regardless, it’s misplaced.)
That was just a shorthand way of saying “I am surprised that you feel this way given that I see the world in a way that...”
Fair enough. In that case, to clarify my response:
I acknowledge that your view of things is plausible in many cases; taking said view does not change my feelings about the situations in question.
Well, let me clarify, too, then :-)
I didn’t really have the particular situation of pianoforte611 in mind. I am sure there are many families where the communication between spouses is ritualized, lacks meaningful content, no one can actually say what they really feel, and is a mess in general.
My point was—and I should have phrased it better—is that, for example, a prohibition of criticizing cooking, may be a symptom of such a dysfunctional relationship, but does not necessarily have to be. Relationships tend to have many implicit rules about what means what. I can easily imagine a good, healthy, intimate relationship where you just can’t tell your girlfriend “Oh, today you look terrible” in the morning even if she, in fact, does look terrible. And that doesn’t sound horrible to me.
To make this point yet again[1], there’s a difference between not wanting (or outright forbidding) spontaneous criticism, to forbidding criticism that is provided when asked. In pianoforte611′s example, his dad is forbidden from saying the cooking’s bad even if he’s asked for his opinion.
Telling your girlfriend “Oh, today you look terrible”, apropos of nothing, seems like a reasonable thing for said girlfriend to object to. If she asks you “How do I look today? Please be honest”, and then you’re not allowed to answer honestly, lest you break the Rules Of The Relationship — that seems obviously dysfunctional to me.
[1] Sorry if I sound frustrated, but people seem to keep ignoring this distinction.
Edit: Upon a bit more consideration, pianoforte611′s example seems even more dysfunctional than at first glance. I mean, if you forbid someone from criticizing you even in response to a request for an opinion, and both parties are aware of this prohibition, what does it signify when you go ahead and ask them for their opinion anyway? It seems like a really ugly power dynamic: one person says “Well, what do you think of my cooking, honey? Hm? Be honest, now...”; all the while knowing full well that the other person can’t answer honestly, lest they break The Rules; holding this over the other person; and fully expecting, correctly, that the other person will dutifully lie, while dutifully pretending that they’re telling the truth — in other words, will submit to the first person’s display of dominance in the relationship.
Of course that could be an exaggeration in the particular case of pianoforte611′s family. But I’ve actually seen this exact dynamic play out in real life, and it’s a common enough cultural script, as offered up regularly by e.g. Hollywood.
That depends. Words are only one of many levels of communication between a couple. You should understand your girlfriend enough to know when she actually means “Please be honest” and when she doesn’t even if she says the same words and their literal meaning is “be honest”. Again—it may well be a symptom of a dysfunctional relationship but it does not automatically have to be.
A lot of communication is non-verbal. A lot of meaning flies across regardless of which words are being said. I feel it is a mistake to focus solely on the literal meaning of the words pronounced.
Well, ok. I suppose if people are ok with having relationship where communication is that complicated, and it works for them, then far be it from me to speak against that. (Not being sarcastic or passive-aggressive here; I generally genuinely don’t care how other people conduct their relationships so long as it doesn’t affect me.)
But I certainly am not interested in being with someone who would say “Please be honest”, but then expect me not to be honest, but only sometimes, and then expect me to know when is which. Nooo sir, I surely am not.
People come as complete packages :-) Some things maybe deal-breakers but some things may be compensated by other advantages.
Oh, and communication is complicated.
I refer you to this comment thread and also this comment here.