It upset me. I don’t like to see lying defended. I would react about the same way to an equally cogent “Defense of Pickpocketing” or “Defense of Throwing Paint On People”, though I imagine those would be much more difficult to construct.
I knew you were a deontologist (I am a cosequentialist), but I had sort of assumed implicitly that our moralities would line up pretty well in non-extreme situations. I realized after reading this how thoroughly alien your morality is to me. You would respond with outrage and hurt if you discovered that someone had written a defense of throwing paint on people? Or pickpocketing? Although I have never practiced either of those activities and do not plan to ever do so, my reaction is totally different.
Pickpocketing is a perfectly practical technique which, like lockpicking, might be used for unsavory purposes by shortsighted or malicious people, but is probably worth knowing how to do and makes a great party trick. And throwing paint on people? Hilarious. It’s not a terribly nice thing to do, especially if the person is wearing nice clothes or is emotionally fragile, but I think most people who can compose a cogent philosophical essay can also target their prankstering semi-competently.
Pickpocketing-as-theft is to lying-in-general as pickpocketing-as-consensual-performance-art is to, say, storytelling, I suppose I should clarify. I think we legitimately disagree about throwing paint on people unless you are being facetious.
In terms of pickpocketing, I agree that we seem to pretty much agree; I think that pickpocketing for the purposes of stealing what doesn’t belong to you is rarely justified. I was not being facetious about the paint part, though.
A more realistic example would be something like “In Defense of Taxation to Fund the Welfare State”—which would be different from “In Defense of Lying”, because even if I think that taxation to fund the welfare state is immoral, I don’t think that someone who holds the opposite position is likely to hold me at gunpoint and demand that I give money to a beggar, but if someone who thinks lying is okay to the degree that OP does, there is a real risk of them lying to me in personal life. More generally, advocating something bad in the abstract isn’t as bad as advocating something bad that I’m likely to experience personally.
even if I think that taxation to fund the welfare state is immoral, I don’t think that someone who holds the opposite position is likely to hold me at gunpoint and demand that I give money to a beggar
You should try not paying your taxes on the grounds that you don’t want to support the welfare state. If you persist, I’m quite sure at some point men with guns will show up at your doorstep.
Other than that he probably votes for people who pass laws telling you how much of your money will be taken “for the beggars” and who have no problems sending men with guns to enforce their commands.
He only has one vote out of the many necessary to send men with guns after me. Even if he changed his mind and voted against the welfare state, the probability that anything would change is minuscule. The expected harm from him voting for the welfare state is smaller than that of him sitting next to me after not showering for a couple of days.
But if the pool of voters were much smaller, I’d take a more negative view of his actions.
You lost me there so hard that I am wondering if we’re talking about the same thing—throwing paint at people doesn’t seem to happen in my corner of the world and I’ve never known anyone who got paint thrown at them, so maybe I’m misunderstanding something. So, to be sure, are we talking here about throwing paint, as in the stuff you paint walls with, at people, ruining their clothes, pissing them off, interrupting their day to get washed and changed and all? Is that what you find funny and defensible?
The issue is not so much about whether the practice itself is usually done in a defensible manner but that writing an article to play devils advocate to make the case of throwing paint at people isn’t an immoral act
Then I happen to be asking a separate question that isn’t about “the issue”. The paragraph I am responding to is talking about the practice of throwing paint, not about the practice of writing articles about it.
Nobody here defends the practice of throwing paint.
But if you wanted me to, then I would say that it’s preferable to throwing stones at other people. You still make your political point by throwing paint at policeman but you are causing less lasting damage. Convincing those people on the left who have a habit of throwing stones at policemen in political demonstrations to instead throw paint would cause less lasting injuries.
You have even higher returns in utility if you could convince a group like Hamas to throw paint instead of using nail bombs.
Nobody here defends the practice of throwing paint.
No?
And throwing paint on people? Hilarious. It’s not a terribly nice thing to do, especially if the person is wearing nice clothes or is emotionally fragile, but [...]
Sounds to me like that means “throwing paint is extremely funny and pretty much OK”.
Sounds to me like that means “throwing paint is extremely funny and pretty much OK”.
The point of the paragraph is to show that it’s possible to play devils advocate in this case. Also a bit about having fun playing devil’s advocate. Joking. Not long ago a fellow member on LW joked about committing bioterrorism. Distinguishing in what intent something is written is important.
Saying “It’s not a terribly nice thing” labels the action as a hostile action. That means you only do it if you actually want to engage in a hostile action against someone else. Given various choices of hostile actions it’s not clear that throwing paint is a bad choice.
That Vulture’s paragraph could be read that way has occurred to me, but it is far from obvious (you’ll note that my original post here is a request for confirmation that I am reading things correctly). I’ve met people with opinions like that before—not on throwing paint, because again, it’s something I’m unfamiliar with, but on other ways to be a jackass.
But it doesn’t matter. Even if you were correct about that, then if we’re discussing the possibility of Alicorn’s or anyone’s outraged/upset reaction to a defense of throwing paint, this only makes sense if this a defense possible to be taken seriously, to elicit a serious reaction. And not something as silly as “you should prefer it to throwing nail bombs”, which deserves only a shrug. So, either way, I felt compelled to assume Vulture was saying something I’m supposed to be able to follow without suspending all common sense.
Even if you were correct about that, then if we’re discussing the possibility of Alicorn’s or anyone’s outraged/upset reaction to a defense of throwing paint, this only makes sense if this a defense possible to be taken seriously, to elicit a serious reaction.
I do think that Alicorn follows a policy of being offended when people to engage in serious efforts to play devils advocate for positions that she considers to be immoral.
Playing devils advocate for extreme immoral positions is something that some people can see as a game. If you go to the world debating championships than you might get a topic to argue that there should be more genocide.
For debating folks making such an argument is a fun game of being intellectually detached from the position that one argues. There are other people who don’t think that there use in someone producing the best defense of genocide that’s possible to produce.
So, either way, I felt compelled to assume Vulture was saying something I’m supposed to be able to follow without suspending all common sense.
It’s possible to win debating tournaments where judges look at whether the participants make rational arguments while advocating positions that are very immoral. It doesn’t take suspending common sense to make an argument that not enough people throw paint at other people. It just takes intellectual detachment.
I knew you were a deontologist (I am a cosequentialist), but I had sort of assumed implicitly that our moralities would line up pretty well in non-extreme situations. I realized after reading this how thoroughly alien your morality is to me. You would respond with outrage and hurt if you discovered that someone had written a defense of throwing paint on people? Or pickpocketing? Although I have never practiced either of those activities and do not plan to ever do so, my reaction is totally different.
Pickpocketing is a perfectly practical technique which, like lockpicking, might be used for unsavory purposes by shortsighted or malicious people, but is probably worth knowing how to do and makes a great party trick. And throwing paint on people? Hilarious. It’s not a terribly nice thing to do, especially if the person is wearing nice clothes or is emotionally fragile, but I think most people who can compose a cogent philosophical essay can also target their prankstering semi-competently.
Pickpocketing-as-theft is to lying-in-general as pickpocketing-as-consensual-performance-art is to, say, storytelling, I suppose I should clarify. I think we legitimately disagree about throwing paint on people unless you are being facetious.
In terms of pickpocketing, I agree that we seem to pretty much agree; I think that pickpocketing for the purposes of stealing what doesn’t belong to you is rarely justified. I was not being facetious about the paint part, though.
A more realistic example would be something like “In Defense of Taxation to Fund the Welfare State”—which would be different from “In Defense of Lying”, because even if I think that taxation to fund the welfare state is immoral, I don’t think that someone who holds the opposite position is likely to hold me at gunpoint and demand that I give money to a beggar, but if someone who thinks lying is okay to the degree that OP does, there is a real risk of them lying to me in personal life. More generally, advocating something bad in the abstract isn’t as bad as advocating something bad that I’m likely to experience personally.
You should try not paying your taxes on the grounds that you don’t want to support the welfare state. If you persist, I’m quite sure at some point men with guns will show up at your doorstep.
Yes, but my friend who is advocating for a welfare state will not be among them. I have nothing to fear from him.
Other than that he probably votes for people who pass laws telling you how much of your money will be taken “for the beggars” and who have no problems sending men with guns to enforce their commands.
He only has one vote out of the many necessary to send men with guns after me. Even if he changed his mind and voted against the welfare state, the probability that anything would change is minuscule. The expected harm from him voting for the welfare state is smaller than that of him sitting next to me after not showering for a couple of days.
But if the pool of voters were much smaller, I’d take a more negative view of his actions.
There’s still cash, right? Might have to change your line of work from bits to bricks too for that to work though.
There is, of course, cash, and the grey economy is not small. But it certainly has its limitations :-/
You lost me there so hard that I am wondering if we’re talking about the same thing—throwing paint at people doesn’t seem to happen in my corner of the world and I’ve never known anyone who got paint thrown at them, so maybe I’m misunderstanding something. So, to be sure, are we talking here about throwing paint, as in the stuff you paint walls with, at people, ruining their clothes, pissing them off, interrupting their day to get washed and changed and all? Is that what you find funny and defensible?
The issue is not so much about whether the practice itself is usually done in a defensible manner but that writing an article to play devils advocate to make the case of throwing paint at people isn’t an immoral act
Then I happen to be asking a separate question that isn’t about “the issue”. The paragraph I am responding to is talking about the practice of throwing paint, not about the practice of writing articles about it.
Nobody here defends the practice of throwing paint.
But if you wanted me to, then I would say that it’s preferable to throwing stones at other people. You still make your political point by throwing paint at policeman but you are causing less lasting damage. Convincing those people on the left who have a habit of throwing stones at policemen in political demonstrations to instead throw paint would cause less lasting injuries.
You have even higher returns in utility if you could convince a group like Hamas to throw paint instead of using nail bombs.
No?
Sounds to me like that means “throwing paint is extremely funny and pretty much OK”.
The point of the paragraph is to show that it’s possible to play devils advocate in this case. Also a bit about having fun playing devil’s advocate. Joking. Not long ago a fellow member on LW joked about committing bioterrorism. Distinguishing in what intent something is written is important.
Saying “It’s not a terribly nice thing” labels the action as a hostile action. That means you only do it if you actually want to engage in a hostile action against someone else. Given various choices of hostile actions it’s not clear that throwing paint is a bad choice.
That Vulture’s paragraph could be read that way has occurred to me, but it is far from obvious (you’ll note that my original post here is a request for confirmation that I am reading things correctly). I’ve met people with opinions like that before—not on throwing paint, because again, it’s something I’m unfamiliar with, but on other ways to be a jackass.
But it doesn’t matter. Even if you were correct about that, then if we’re discussing the possibility of Alicorn’s or anyone’s outraged/upset reaction to a defense of throwing paint, this only makes sense if this a defense possible to be taken seriously, to elicit a serious reaction. And not something as silly as “you should prefer it to throwing nail bombs”, which deserves only a shrug. So, either way, I felt compelled to assume Vulture was saying something I’m supposed to be able to follow without suspending all common sense.
I do think that Alicorn follows a policy of being offended when people to engage in serious efforts to play devils advocate for positions that she considers to be immoral.
Playing devils advocate for extreme immoral positions is something that some people can see as a game. If you go to the world debating championships than you might get a topic to argue that there should be more genocide. For debating folks making such an argument is a fun game of being intellectually detached from the position that one argues. There are other people who don’t think that there use in someone producing the best defense of genocide that’s possible to produce.
It’s possible to win debating tournaments where judges look at whether the participants make rational arguments while advocating positions that are very immoral. It doesn’t take suspending common sense to make an argument that not enough people throw paint at other people. It just takes intellectual detachment.