Instead of giving up, I think of solutions to the problem
This, perhaps, is where you missed an opportunity to apply a lesson from the Sequences. There is no urgency to solving the problem, the urgent task is to understand it, and it is this task that requires time.
You might also have missed subtle cues that you were violating tacit norms of behaviour, for instance when Luke said “we could debate in this comment thread” and you ignored that in favor of making a new post.
The clearing of sanity in a jungle has begun to look too much like the jungle itself to me.
This stands out a bit from the rest of your comment: it suggests you are idealizing the community, rather than acknowledging the consequences of its being made up of human beings equipped with standard issue human brains.
The reason I suggest you write about substantive topics is that this will give you more of a chance to get acculturated into the thinking tools that are the cause of your perceiving this as “a clearing of sanity in a jungle”.
Even for the most acculturated among this community, best performance consists of applying some of these thinking tools some of the time, somewhat competently. Rationality remains the exception rather than the rule—this is implied in the very name “Less Wrong”.
If anyone can suggest a resolution to this problem, I’m more than willing to hear it.
Play a round of Rationalist Taboo for yourself (i.e. don’t try to second-guess what anyone else means by that term) on “elitist”. Spell out what it is exactly that your ethics does not allow you to support or be seen as supporting. Approach this question lightly, with an open mind and no bottom line already filled in. Now relate this specific question to the way this community approaches ethical questions—you do not have to agree with the community, but you have to grasp what the approach is.
Are you willing to do the above?
If you can steer clear of any meta-discussion (including even allusions to meta topics), this could even be good material for a post.
I don’t know why I didn’t realize that I needed to understand this better before I jumped in. I was ignorant of my own ignorance. Sometimes when you don’t realize you’re missing a piece of information, there is nothing to warn you. Other times, I see that things are going to be complex. (Which is why I took the time to think it out and wrote something like ten pages on different solutions to Eternal September and their consequences). I also do that at work—I clarify what the purpose of the project is before I code it. For some reason, that little flag was missing here. Now I get to try and guess why.
I think you’re right that I don’t pick up on hints enough. I really don’t get why people hint. That seems dysfunctional to me. I wish they’d just be clear.
idealizing the community
The problem isn’t that I idealized the community, the problem is … how do I explain this. I am extremely prone to a particular bias. I know I have it, I just don’t know the word for it. I give people too much credit. It’s something I do over and over again. Not sure how to stop it. I seem to need to learn about each group’s flaws individually.
a chance to get acculturated into the thinking tools
I started challenging my ideas and using logic at 17, and I’ve been pretty hard core about it since then. I’m already using a lot of the thinking tools. Apparently I still am not perfect. I feel like I really needed to be part of a group of people capable of pointing out my flaws and giving me ideas I would not have thought of. I am so grateful for this. I will have a chance to find any unseen problems now.
Rationality remains the exception rather than the rule—this is implied in the very name “Less Wrong”.
Thank you for that. I feel better about not being perfect. (: Still going to aim for perfection though. (:
Play a round of Rationalist Taboo
I decided to take your and Alicorn’s suggestion on this. At first I didn’t know what that meant but I have since found the correct reading materials.
If you can steer clear of any meta-discussion (including even allusions to meta topics), this could even be good material for a post.
I would love to do that. I’ve been thinking that if I can learn enough about the political sides that seem to be triggered here, I can transcend thinking inside that dichotomy, and perhaps show others how to do the same. That’s my thought on how to present it. Do you have anything to suggest in addition?
Thanks for the obviously thought-out response.
This, perhaps, is where you missed an opportunity to apply a lesson from the Sequences. There is no urgency to solving the problem, the urgent task is to understand it, and it is this task that requires time.
You might also have missed subtle cues that you were violating tacit norms of behaviour, for instance when Luke said “we could debate in this comment thread” and you ignored that in favor of making a new post.
This stands out a bit from the rest of your comment: it suggests you are idealizing the community, rather than acknowledging the consequences of its being made up of human beings equipped with standard issue human brains.
The reason I suggest you write about substantive topics is that this will give you more of a chance to get acculturated into the thinking tools that are the cause of your perceiving this as “a clearing of sanity in a jungle”.
Even for the most acculturated among this community, best performance consists of applying some of these thinking tools some of the time, somewhat competently. Rationality remains the exception rather than the rule—this is implied in the very name “Less Wrong”.
Play a round of Rationalist Taboo for yourself (i.e. don’t try to second-guess what anyone else means by that term) on “elitist”. Spell out what it is exactly that your ethics does not allow you to support or be seen as supporting. Approach this question lightly, with an open mind and no bottom line already filled in. Now relate this specific question to the way this community approaches ethical questions—you do not have to agree with the community, but you have to grasp what the approach is.
Are you willing to do the above?
If you can steer clear of any meta-discussion (including even allusions to meta topics), this could even be good material for a post.
This was so sane, Morendil. Thank you.
I don’t know why I didn’t realize that I needed to understand this better before I jumped in. I was ignorant of my own ignorance. Sometimes when you don’t realize you’re missing a piece of information, there is nothing to warn you. Other times, I see that things are going to be complex. (Which is why I took the time to think it out and wrote something like ten pages on different solutions to Eternal September and their consequences). I also do that at work—I clarify what the purpose of the project is before I code it. For some reason, that little flag was missing here. Now I get to try and guess why.
I think you’re right that I don’t pick up on hints enough. I really don’t get why people hint. That seems dysfunctional to me. I wish they’d just be clear.
The problem isn’t that I idealized the community, the problem is … how do I explain this. I am extremely prone to a particular bias. I know I have it, I just don’t know the word for it. I give people too much credit. It’s something I do over and over again. Not sure how to stop it. I seem to need to learn about each group’s flaws individually.
I started challenging my ideas and using logic at 17, and I’ve been pretty hard core about it since then. I’m already using a lot of the thinking tools. Apparently I still am not perfect. I feel like I really needed to be part of a group of people capable of pointing out my flaws and giving me ideas I would not have thought of. I am so grateful for this. I will have a chance to find any unseen problems now.
Thank you for that. I feel better about not being perfect. (: Still going to aim for perfection though. (:
I decided to take your and Alicorn’s suggestion on this. At first I didn’t know what that meant but I have since found the correct reading materials.
I would love to do that. I’ve been thinking that if I can learn enough about the political sides that seem to be triggered here, I can transcend thinking inside that dichotomy, and perhaps show others how to do the same. That’s my thought on how to present it. Do you have anything to suggest in addition?