My entire point was that it might be possible to recognize these situations and then act in an appropriate manner.
I think this is called “behaving rationally”. I understand “rationality” as using reason to my benefit. If there comes a time when it would be beneficial for me to do something, and I arrive at that conclusion through reason, then I’d consider that a triumph of rationality. I think if you are able to anticipate an advantage that could be gained by a behavior then refusing to perform that behavior would be irrational.
Anecdotal evidence shouldn’t be a cause to say something is horrible.
You misunderstand me. It isn’t my anecdotal evidence that makes me think the church is horrible. I just pointed out that I had spent a lot of time in churches to show that I have more than the passing familiarity with them that you attributed to me. I think the church is horrible because it threatens children, promotes inaccurate material and takes money from the gullible.
The church that I go to most of the time has only 2 or three children in it and is mostly made up of members over 60
While this is good that your church isn’t abusing more children, it is still terrible to consign “2 or three children” to such mistreatment. Telling children that there is a hell and that they will go to it if they don’t believe in something which is obviously flawed is a terrible thing to do. It is psychological child abuse and I don’t think it says very much in your church’s favor that it only abuses two or three kids.
Besides, if you look at it from a Christian point of view, is it wrong to teach children when they are young?
A child lacks the intellectual maturity to understand or evaluate complex ideas. A child is more trusting than an adult. If your parents tell you something is true, or that you should believe this minister when he talks about heaven, you are more likely to believe it. If your parents came to you now and told you about how they had just found out about Krishna and you should read the Bhagavad Gita you probably wouldn’t be very receptive. And yet, your parents managed to convince you that the Bible was true. Why was that? Was it because through random chance you were born into a family that already believed in the one true religion? Or was it just that you adopted the religion you were exposed to. Because, when you were young your mind wasn’t discriminating enough to realize that, wait a second, this isn’t making sense!
Would you advocate waiting till a person is 20 to start teaching them how to read, write and do math?
No, but the usefulness of reading is well established. Mathematics is axiomatic. Religion is, as the most polite thing I could say about it, highly suspect. I don’t think its right for adults to have sex with children, because children aren’t mature enough to make informed decisions about consent. Similarly, I don’t think its okay for people to teach religion to children because children aren’t mature enough to make informed decisions about ontology.
I respectfully disagree. I would appreciate it if you could be respectful in turn.
I apologize if you have found me disrespectful so far. It isn’t my intention to be disrespectful to you. That said, I have no intention of being respectful to a set of beliefs which I consider first to be wrong and second to be pernicious. If you have an argument which you think is compelling as to the truth of Christianity, please tell me. I promise that if I am swayed by your argument I will begin to show Christianity due deference.
Is it as bad as telling a child that if they play in traffic they could cease to exist?
This is a true statement that is designed to protect a child. Saying something like “You’ll writhe in agony for all time if you don’t believe in the truth of this thousands of years old document compiled over hundreds of years by an unknown but large number of authors” isn’t the same kind of statement. Even if you don’t explicitly say that to a child, convincing them to believe in Christianity is implicitly making that statement.
As far as “bad” goes, I don’t have a ready definition. I have to fall back on Justice Potter Stewart “I know it when I see it”. Threatening children and teaching them things that are at best highly suspect as if they were true is bad.
Not true for all churches. In fact I have yet to be in a single one that even suggests it
Tithing (giving a tenth) is explicitly recommended in the Bible. If the churches you are going to endorse the Bible then they are at least implicitly asking for 10%.
You know, kind of like what Eliezer is doing right now with the workshops he is setting up.
I don’t think Eliezer has a school for children where he teaches them that unless they grow up to believe in his set of rules that an Unfriendly AI will punish them for all time. I have less against evangelism to adults. If Eliezer asks for money like this, that is fair, because the people he is asking can evaluate whether or not they believe in the cause and donate accordingly. There is nothing wrong with that. There is something wrong with compelling donations through threats of damnation.
I think this is called “behaving rationally”. I understand “rationality” as using reason to my benefit.
Thus my point that sometimes you should not question one of your own beliefs is preserved. You agree that it would be the rational thing to do in some situations.
As far as “bad” goes, I don’t have a ready definition.
If you can’t explain what bad is, then I am unable to discuss this with you. You might have a good definition, or you might be just saying that whatever makes you mad is automatically bad. I can’t know, so I can’t form any arguments about it.
If you can’t explain what bad is, then I am unable to discuss this with you
Bad is causing harm to people who don’t deserve it. Convincing someone in the existence of hell is harmful—you are theatening them with the worst thing possible, convincing someone of a lie to compel them to serve the chruch through donations of time or money is harmful, convincing someone that they are innately sinful is harmful psychologically, convincing someone that morality is tied to religious institution is harmful. Children are least deserving of harm and so harming them is bad.
I think this is called “behaving rationally”. I understand “rationality” as using reason to my benefit. If there comes a time when it would be beneficial for me to do something, and I arrive at that conclusion through reason, then I’d consider that a triumph of rationality. I think if you are able to anticipate an advantage that could be gained by a behavior then refusing to perform that behavior would be irrational.
You misunderstand me. It isn’t my anecdotal evidence that makes me think the church is horrible. I just pointed out that I had spent a lot of time in churches to show that I have more than the passing familiarity with them that you attributed to me. I think the church is horrible because it threatens children, promotes inaccurate material and takes money from the gullible.
While this is good that your church isn’t abusing more children, it is still terrible to consign “2 or three children” to such mistreatment. Telling children that there is a hell and that they will go to it if they don’t believe in something which is obviously flawed is a terrible thing to do. It is psychological child abuse and I don’t think it says very much in your church’s favor that it only abuses two or three kids.
A child lacks the intellectual maturity to understand or evaluate complex ideas. A child is more trusting than an adult. If your parents tell you something is true, or that you should believe this minister when he talks about heaven, you are more likely to believe it. If your parents came to you now and told you about how they had just found out about Krishna and you should read the Bhagavad Gita you probably wouldn’t be very receptive. And yet, your parents managed to convince you that the Bible was true. Why was that? Was it because through random chance you were born into a family that already believed in the one true religion? Or was it just that you adopted the religion you were exposed to. Because, when you were young your mind wasn’t discriminating enough to realize that, wait a second, this isn’t making sense!
No, but the usefulness of reading is well established. Mathematics is axiomatic. Religion is, as the most polite thing I could say about it, highly suspect. I don’t think its right for adults to have sex with children, because children aren’t mature enough to make informed decisions about consent. Similarly, I don’t think its okay for people to teach religion to children because children aren’t mature enough to make informed decisions about ontology.
I apologize if you have found me disrespectful so far. It isn’t my intention to be disrespectful to you. That said, I have no intention of being respectful to a set of beliefs which I consider first to be wrong and second to be pernicious. If you have an argument which you think is compelling as to the truth of Christianity, please tell me. I promise that if I am swayed by your argument I will begin to show Christianity due deference.
This is a true statement that is designed to protect a child. Saying something like “You’ll writhe in agony for all time if you don’t believe in the truth of this thousands of years old document compiled over hundreds of years by an unknown but large number of authors” isn’t the same kind of statement. Even if you don’t explicitly say that to a child, convincing them to believe in Christianity is implicitly making that statement.
As far as “bad” goes, I don’t have a ready definition. I have to fall back on Justice Potter Stewart “I know it when I see it”. Threatening children and teaching them things that are at best highly suspect as if they were true is bad.
Tithing (giving a tenth) is explicitly recommended in the Bible. If the churches you are going to endorse the Bible then they are at least implicitly asking for 10%.
I don’t think Eliezer has a school for children where he teaches them that unless they grow up to believe in his set of rules that an Unfriendly AI will punish them for all time. I have less against evangelism to adults. If Eliezer asks for money like this, that is fair, because the people he is asking can evaluate whether or not they believe in the cause and donate accordingly. There is nothing wrong with that. There is something wrong with compelling donations through threats of damnation.
Thus my point that sometimes you should not question one of your own beliefs is preserved. You agree that it would be the rational thing to do in some situations.
If you can’t explain what bad is, then I am unable to discuss this with you. You might have a good definition, or you might be just saying that whatever makes you mad is automatically bad. I can’t know, so I can’t form any arguments about it.
Bad is causing harm to people who don’t deserve it. Convincing someone in the existence of hell is harmful—you are theatening them with the worst thing possible, convincing someone of a lie to compel them to serve the chruch through donations of time or money is harmful, convincing someone that they are innately sinful is harmful psychologically, convincing someone that morality is tied to religious institution is harmful. Children are least deserving of harm and so harming them is bad.