Do you agree that, other things being equal, a relationship in which neither partner would abandon the other in such a situation is probably a better one overall? What sort of qualities would make a relationship have that property? Are they more or less likely in a purely transactional relationship?
I agree such a relationship is likely better (although not everyone may want such). The most important qualities for such a relationship seems to me to be depth of commitment, and a sense of duty in each partner (to take those commitments seriously). They seem to me to be much more likely in a transactional relationship, where each party commits in return for the other party doing so too, than in a non-transactional relationship, where each party commits by an independent decision, whether or not the other party also commits.
If you truly cared about your partner “as an end in herself” you still wouldn’t leave. Care to bite that bullet?
I’m not sure exactly what position you’re arguing with and why you think it’s my position, but: if my wife (I do, as it happens, have a wife) were unfaithful or became addicted to drugs, I would not necessarily want to end our marriage on that account. I would much prefer to salvage if it possible.
I’m not saying you’d necessarily want to end your marriage on that account. I’m just saying that you might (depending on how you feel about drugs, whether it was salvageable in a manner you considered acceptable, etc). Is there really nothing she could do that would make you say “I’ve had enough”? Because if you truly cared about her as “an end in itself” then it wouldn’t matter what she did. Indeed, even if she ended her relationship with you and took up with someone else, you’d be equally keen to make her happy. Which, frankly, I don’t believe. At the very least, if it’s true for you, you’re an exceptional person. The transactional analysis says that you try to make her happy in exchange for her making you happy. Which is why when one person quits the relationship, the other person finds someone else to have a relationship with. Isn’t it miraculous how people change what is their “end in itself” to precisely coincide with their mutual advantage like that!
Obligation, on the other hand, doesn’t seem to have any place in a non-transactional relationship; as everyone was acting purely for their own ends to begin with, there can’t be any debts or obligations.
does definitely seem to indicate a difference in meaning, though; I don’t see how “non-transactional” implies “everyone was acting purely for their own ends” any more than “transactional” does.
In a transactional relationship, I promise to do X in exchange for your promise to do Y. So if I do X, and you don’t do Y, you owe me. But in a non-transactional relationship as defined above, I don’t do X in exchange for Y, I just do X because it makes you happy, which is my “end in itself.” You don’t owe me anything in return. Maybe you’ll do Y because it makes me happy, which is your “end in itself.” Maybe not.
This non-transactional model of relationships implies that it’s a mere coincidence that couples happen to have each others’ happiness as their arational “end in itself.” It’s not a good model of most relationships, and while it may apply to some relationships, those are clearly unhealthy.
if you truly cared about her as “an end in itself” then it wouldn’t matter what she did.
This simply isn’t true. I can value X “as an end in itself” and still give up X, if I value other things as well and the situation changes so that I can get more of the other things I value. Something being intrinsically motivating doesn’t mean it’s the only motivating thing.
This non-transactional model of relationships implies that it’s a mere coincidence that couples happen to have each others’ happiness as their arational “end in itself.”
If you mean logically implies, this also simply isn’t true.
It might instead, for example, be a result of being in a relationship… perhaps once I become part of a couple (for whatever reasons), my value system alters so that I value my partner’s happiness as an “arational “end in itself.” ” It might instead be a cause of being in a relationship… I only engage in a relationship with someone after I come to value their happiness in this way. There might be a noncoincidental common cause whereby I both form relationships with, and to come to value in this way, the same people.
More generally… I tend to agree with your conclusion that most real-world relationships are transactional in the sense you mean here, but I think you’re being very sloppy with your arguments for it.
You may want to take a breath and rethink how much of what you’re saying you actually believe, and how much you’re simply saying in order to win an argument.
Something being intrinsically motivating doesn’t mean it’s the only motivating thing.
Good thing I never said that. The question is not “Is there anything a partner can do to make you end the relationship,” it’s “is there anything a partner can do to affect your desire for their happiness.” If your desire for their happiness really is intrinsically motivated, then the answer to (2) is “no.” But no-one believes that’s healthy.
If you mean logically implies, this also simply isn’t true.
“Logical implication” is emphatically not the ordinary use of the word implies. And you know that.
You may want to take a breath and rethink how much of what you’re saying you actually believe, and how much you’re simply saying in order to win an argument.
I’m not as smart as you to understand which of my positions are so flawed that I deserve to be belittled like that for advancing them. Fool that I am, I believe them all.
I agree such a relationship is likely better (although not everyone may want such). The most important qualities for such a relationship seems to me to be depth of commitment, and a sense of duty in each partner (to take those commitments seriously). They seem to me to be much more likely in a transactional relationship, where each party commits in return for the other party doing so too, than in a non-transactional relationship, where each party commits by an independent decision, whether or not the other party also commits.
I’m not saying you’d necessarily want to end your marriage on that account. I’m just saying that you might (depending on how you feel about drugs, whether it was salvageable in a manner you considered acceptable, etc). Is there really nothing she could do that would make you say “I’ve had enough”? Because if you truly cared about her as “an end in itself” then it wouldn’t matter what she did. Indeed, even if she ended her relationship with you and took up with someone else, you’d be equally keen to make her happy. Which, frankly, I don’t believe. At the very least, if it’s true for you, you’re an exceptional person. The transactional analysis says that you try to make her happy in exchange for her making you happy. Which is why when one person quits the relationship, the other person finds someone else to have a relationship with. Isn’t it miraculous how people change what is their “end in itself” to precisely coincide with their mutual advantage like that!
In a transactional relationship, I promise to do X in exchange for your promise to do Y. So if I do X, and you don’t do Y, you owe me. But in a non-transactional relationship as defined above, I don’t do X in exchange for Y, I just do X because it makes you happy, which is my “end in itself.” You don’t owe me anything in return. Maybe you’ll do Y because it makes me happy, which is your “end in itself.” Maybe not.
This non-transactional model of relationships implies that it’s a mere coincidence that couples happen to have each others’ happiness as their arational “end in itself.” It’s not a good model of most relationships, and while it may apply to some relationships, those are clearly unhealthy.
This simply isn’t true. I can value X “as an end in itself” and still give up X, if I value other things as well and the situation changes so that I can get more of the other things I value. Something being intrinsically motivating doesn’t mean it’s the only motivating thing.
If you mean logically implies, this also simply isn’t true.
It might instead, for example, be a result of being in a relationship… perhaps once I become part of a couple (for whatever reasons), my value system alters so that I value my partner’s happiness as an “arational “end in itself.” ” It might instead be a cause of being in a relationship… I only engage in a relationship with someone after I come to value their happiness in this way. There might be a noncoincidental common cause whereby I both form relationships with, and to come to value in this way, the same people.
More generally… I tend to agree with your conclusion that most real-world relationships are transactional in the sense you mean here, but I think you’re being very sloppy with your arguments for it.
You may want to take a breath and rethink how much of what you’re saying you actually believe, and how much you’re simply saying in order to win an argument.
Good thing I never said that. The question is not “Is there anything a partner can do to make you end the relationship,” it’s “is there anything a partner can do to affect your desire for their happiness.” If your desire for their happiness really is intrinsically motivated, then the answer to (2) is “no.” But no-one believes that’s healthy.
“Logical implication” is emphatically not the ordinary use of the word implies. And you know that.
I’m not as smart as you to understand which of my positions are so flawed that I deserve to be belittled like that for advancing them. Fool that I am, I believe them all.
OK. My apologies. As you were.