You downplay the impact incompetent teachers have. I’m wondering why; if it’s because you think the teachers simply are competent in general and it’s very much not their fault that schools in general fail, then you are of course wrong; if you think it’s because, from an engineering standpoint, it would be too infeasible to change teachers’ behavior compared to changing student’s behavior, then you’re not obviously wrong but I still don’t see how that could be the case.
The way I see it, there are far more students than teachers, and students have to go to school anyway, so there’s not much you can offer them for doing better. The asymmetry means it would be easier to change teachers’ behavior for two reasons: 1) there are fewer; 2) they have to do what the unions and school boards say in order to get money.
But the real problem is that it’s incompetence all the way down. Incompetent lawmakers, incompetent school boards, incompetent teachers, incompetent students, and every step down the ladder you lose something. Honestly, I wouldn’t be surprised if the easiest way to reform education would be to manufacture a positive singularity.
Also, I think you should repost this in Discussion. Not as many people check the open threads as there, and you deserve better discourse than what I just gave.
There are too many incompetent teachers. I just consider this a consequence of the problem, not a cause. When you set up the environment so that the competent people want to leave, of course you end up with the incompetent ones.
I have seen teachers popular with students leave, because they started a family, and in this town with two teachers’ salaries you can’t get a mortgage. Most teachers financially depend on their partner’s income. (I would say that they subsidize the school system.) I have seen a good teacher leave because she was good at teaching but did not want to cope with too much paperwork. I have left too, because I refused to deal with the behavior of my students and a pressure to give them good grades for nothing. Of course when people like this leave… who stays? Often people who simply don’t have a choice. And a few self-sacrificing idealists, but there is only a limited supply of them.
With regard to unions—this is where the “different rules in different countries” starts to apply—as far as I know teachers’ unions in Slovakia virtually don’t exist. (They do exist, but never did anything, and I personally don’t know any person who is a member.) There are incompetent lawmakers, and the bureaucrats in the department of education who never worked in schools, but nonetheless insist on regulating everything. There is a system of financing that creates perverse incentives—how much money you get depends only on the number of students you have: so of course no one wants to fire students; and you have to give them better grades because otherwise they will go to another school that will give them good grades for nothing. Also you can’t threaten them about not getting to university, because also the universities are paid (though not exclusively) depending on the number of students, so everyone knows that everyone will get to the university.
I will probably post a longer version of this in Discussion, thanks for suggesting this.
Indeed, it is a positive feedback loop. Bad working conditions make competent people leave, so mostly incompetent people stay. Then the public decides that these incompetent people do not deserve better working conditions, and the debate ends here. Now the whole system is doomed.
But I wanted to say that this loop cannot be broken at the “incompetent teachers” point (and therefore we have to seek the solution elsewhere). Even if you would fire all teachers and replace them by a new generation of superheroes… unless the system changes, those superheroes would gradually leave the school system for better opportunities, and the schools would have to hire back the previously fired teachers. (Actually, I believe that this is already happening, because each year a new group of superheroes comes from universities. There are still people who didn’t get the message and try to become good teachers.)
I am not sure which other part of the loop would be a good place to break. Seems to me that a good start would be, at the same time: somewhat higher salaries, freedom in choosing textbooks and organizing classes, and possibility to remove disruptivestudents from the classroom. Problem is, in a short term it would also bring some bad consequences; the existing bad teachers would have more freedom and more money. But the point is that in the long term the profession would become attractive, and the schools could replace the bad teachers with good ones.
I also think it would be good to make an independent system to give grades to students. If the same person has to both teach students and evaluate them, it is a conflict of interests, because the person indirectly evaluates also the result of their own work. So it makes a pressure on teacher to give better grades. Students and parents will usually forgive you teaching bad, if you give good grades; but if you give bad grades, deserved or not, it makes people angry. (When parents complain about “bad teachers”, it is almost always the teachers who give bad grades.) Most parents don’t seem to think that good grades without adequate knowledge could hurt their children in the long term.
You downplay the impact incompetent teachers have. I’m wondering why; if it’s because you think the teachers simply are competent in general and it’s very much not their fault that schools in general fail, then you are of course wrong; if you think it’s because, from an engineering standpoint, it would be too infeasible to change teachers’ behavior compared to changing student’s behavior, then you’re not obviously wrong but I still don’t see how that could be the case.
The way I see it, there are far more students than teachers, and students have to go to school anyway, so there’s not much you can offer them for doing better. The asymmetry means it would be easier to change teachers’ behavior for two reasons: 1) there are fewer; 2) they have to do what the unions and school boards say in order to get money.
But the real problem is that it’s incompetence all the way down. Incompetent lawmakers, incompetent school boards, incompetent teachers, incompetent students, and every step down the ladder you lose something. Honestly, I wouldn’t be surprised if the easiest way to reform education would be to manufacture a positive singularity.
Also, I think you should repost this in Discussion. Not as many people check the open threads as there, and you deserve better discourse than what I just gave.
There are too many incompetent teachers. I just consider this a consequence of the problem, not a cause. When you set up the environment so that the competent people want to leave, of course you end up with the incompetent ones.
I have seen teachers popular with students leave, because they started a family, and in this town with two teachers’ salaries you can’t get a mortgage. Most teachers financially depend on their partner’s income. (I would say that they subsidize the school system.) I have seen a good teacher leave because she was good at teaching but did not want to cope with too much paperwork. I have left too, because I refused to deal with the behavior of my students and a pressure to give them good grades for nothing. Of course when people like this leave… who stays? Often people who simply don’t have a choice. And a few self-sacrificing idealists, but there is only a limited supply of them.
With regard to unions—this is where the “different rules in different countries” starts to apply—as far as I know teachers’ unions in Slovakia virtually don’t exist. (They do exist, but never did anything, and I personally don’t know any person who is a member.) There are incompetent lawmakers, and the bureaucrats in the department of education who never worked in schools, but nonetheless insist on regulating everything. There is a system of financing that creates perverse incentives—how much money you get depends only on the number of students you have: so of course no one wants to fire students; and you have to give them better grades because otherwise they will go to another school that will give them good grades for nothing. Also you can’t threaten them about not getting to university, because also the universities are paid (though not exclusively) depending on the number of students, so everyone knows that everyone will get to the university.
I will probably post a longer version of this in Discussion, thanks for suggesting this.
I don’t think we disagree. This is one of those positive feedback loops where a thing’s consequence is also its cause.
Indeed, it is a positive feedback loop. Bad working conditions make competent people leave, so mostly incompetent people stay. Then the public decides that these incompetent people do not deserve better working conditions, and the debate ends here. Now the whole system is doomed.
But I wanted to say that this loop cannot be broken at the “incompetent teachers” point (and therefore we have to seek the solution elsewhere). Even if you would fire all teachers and replace them by a new generation of superheroes… unless the system changes, those superheroes would gradually leave the school system for better opportunities, and the schools would have to hire back the previously fired teachers. (Actually, I believe that this is already happening, because each year a new group of superheroes comes from universities. There are still people who didn’t get the message and try to become good teachers.)
I am not sure which other part of the loop would be a good place to break. Seems to me that a good start would be, at the same time: somewhat higher salaries, freedom in choosing textbooks and organizing classes, and possibility to remove disruptive students from the classroom. Problem is, in a short term it would also bring some bad consequences; the existing bad teachers would have more freedom and more money. But the point is that in the long term the profession would become attractive, and the schools could replace the bad teachers with good ones.
I also think it would be good to make an independent system to give grades to students. If the same person has to both teach students and evaluate them, it is a conflict of interests, because the person indirectly evaluates also the result of their own work. So it makes a pressure on teacher to give better grades. Students and parents will usually forgive you teaching bad, if you give good grades; but if you give bad grades, deserved or not, it makes people angry. (When parents complain about “bad teachers”, it is almost always the teachers who give bad grades.) Most parents don’t seem to think that good grades without adequate knowledge could hurt their children in the long term.