In any case there really isn’t any reason to be offended and especially there is no reason to allow the other person to provoke you to anger or acting without thought.
It seems really, really difficult to convey to people who don’t understand it already that becoming offended is a choice, and it’s possible to not allow someone to control you in that way. Maybe “offendibility” is linked to a fundamental personality trait.
What constitutes a “choice” in this context is pretty subjective. It may be less confusing to tell someone they could have a choice instead of asserting that they do have a choice. The latter connotes a conscious decision gone awry, and in doing so contradicts the subject’s experience that no decision-making was involved.
Good point. Reading my comment again, it seems obvious that I committed the typical mind fallacy in assuming that it really is a choice for most people.
I would at least hope that you are claiming that there is, in fact, a choice, whether the subjective experience of the moment provides indication of the choice or not.
Maybe stated differently you could be claiming that there is the possibility of choice for all people whether a person is aware or capable of taking advantage of that fact. That a person can alter his or her self in order to provide his or her self with the opportunity to choose in such situations.
Loqi’s feedback seems to me to be suggesting that individuals who do not have a belief that they have such a “possibility of choice” could have a more positive phenomenological experience of your assertion and as a result be more likely to integrate the belief into their own belief set and [presumably] gain advantage by encountering it.
That is me asserting that Loqi does not appear to be rejecting your assertion but only suggesting a manner by which it can be improved.
Of course, Loqi’s suggestion could contingently be less optimal than the less easy to accept presentation.
While the approach you suggest could provide a more subjectively negative experience, the cognitive dissonance could cause the utterance to gain more attention with the brain as a more aberrant occurrence in its stimuli and as a result be worthy of further analysis and consideration.
I am generally in favor of delivering notions I believe to be helpful in a manner which can/will be accepted. In some cases however, others are able and more likely to accept a less than pleasant delivery mechanism. This is contingent upon the audience, of course, as well as the level of knowledge you have about your audience. In the absence of such knowledge, the more gentle approach seems advisable.
It could be. It seems not just difficult but actually against most culture on the planet. Consider that crimes of passion, like killing someone when you find them sleeping around on you, often get a lower sentence than a murder ‘in cold blood’. If someone says ‘he made me angry’ we know exactly what that person means. Responding to a word with a bullet is a very common tactic, even in a joking situation; I’ve had things thrown at me for puns!
It does seem like a learn-able skill even so. I did not have this skill when I was child, but I do have it now. The point I learned it in my life seems to roughly correspond to when I was first trained and working as technical support. I don’t know if there’s a correlation there.
In any case, merely being aware that this is a skill may help a few people on this forum to learn it, and I can see only benefit in trying. It is possible to not control anger but instead never even feel it in the first place, without effort or willpower.
And yet, not to feel an emotion in the first place may obscure you to yourself—it’s a two-sided coin. To opt to not know what you’re feeling when I struggle to find out seems strange to me.
I think you’re misunderstanding what I said. I’m not obscuring my feelings from myself. I’m just aware of the moment when I choose what to feel, and I actively choose.
I’m not advocating never getting angry, just not doing it when it’s likely to impair your ability to communicate or function. If you choose to be offended, that’s a valid choice… but it should also be an active choice, not just the default.
I find it fairly easy to be frustrated without being angry at someone. It is, after all, my fault for assuming that someone is able to understand what I’m trying to argue, so there’s no point in being angry at them for my assumption. They might have a particularly virulent meme that won’t let them understand… should I get mad at them for a parasite? It seems pointless.
Well, it seems I misunderstand your statement, “It is possible to not control anger but instead never even feel it in the first place, without effort or willpower.”
I know it is possible to experience anger, but control it and not act angry—there is a difference between having the feeling and acting on it. I know it is also possible to not feel anger, or to only feel anger later, when distanced from the situation. I’m ok with being aware of the feeling and not acting on it, but to get to the point where you don’t feel it is where I’m starting to doubt whether it’s really a net benefit.
And yes, I do understand that with understand / assumptions about other people, stuff that would have otherwise bothered me (or someone else) is no longer a source of anger. You changed your outlook and understanding of that type of situation so that your emotion is frustration and not anger. If that’s what you meant originally, I understand now.
Mostly I don’t even feel frustration, but instead sadness. I’d like to be able to help, but sometimes the best I can do is just be patient and try to explain clearly, and always immediately abandon my arguments if I find that I’m the one with the error.
It seems really, really difficult to convey to people who don’t understand it already that becoming offended is a choice, and it’s possible to not allow someone to control you in that way. Maybe “offendibility” is linked to a fundamental personality trait.
What constitutes a “choice” in this context is pretty subjective. It may be less confusing to tell someone they could have a choice instead of asserting that they do have a choice. The latter connotes a conscious decision gone awry, and in doing so contradicts the subject’s experience that no decision-making was involved.
Good point. Reading my comment again, it seems obvious that I committed the typical mind fallacy in assuming that it really is a choice for most people.
I’d take this differently.
I would at least hope that you are claiming that there is, in fact, a choice, whether the subjective experience of the moment provides indication of the choice or not.
Maybe stated differently you could be claiming that there is the possibility of choice for all people whether a person is aware or capable of taking advantage of that fact. That a person can alter his or her self in order to provide his or her self with the opportunity to choose in such situations.
Loqi’s feedback seems to me to be suggesting that individuals who do not have a belief that they have such a “possibility of choice” could have a more positive phenomenological experience of your assertion and as a result be more likely to integrate the belief into their own belief set and [presumably] gain advantage by encountering it.
That is me asserting that Loqi does not appear to be rejecting your assertion but only suggesting a manner by which it can be improved.
Of course, Loqi’s suggestion could contingently be less optimal than the less easy to accept presentation.
While the approach you suggest could provide a more subjectively negative experience, the cognitive dissonance could cause the utterance to gain more attention with the brain as a more aberrant occurrence in its stimuli and as a result be worthy of further analysis and consideration.
I am generally in favor of delivering notions I believe to be helpful in a manner which can/will be accepted. In some cases however, others are able and more likely to accept a less than pleasant delivery mechanism. This is contingent upon the audience, of course, as well as the level of knowledge you have about your audience. In the absence of such knowledge, the more gentle approach seems advisable.
It could be. It seems not just difficult but actually against most culture on the planet. Consider that crimes of passion, like killing someone when you find them sleeping around on you, often get a lower sentence than a murder ‘in cold blood’. If someone says ‘he made me angry’ we know exactly what that person means. Responding to a word with a bullet is a very common tactic, even in a joking situation; I’ve had things thrown at me for puns!
It does seem like a learn-able skill even so. I did not have this skill when I was child, but I do have it now. The point I learned it in my life seems to roughly correspond to when I was first trained and working as technical support. I don’t know if there’s a correlation there.
In any case, merely being aware that this is a skill may help a few people on this forum to learn it, and I can see only benefit in trying. It is possible to not control anger but instead never even feel it in the first place, without effort or willpower.
Edit—please disregard this post
I imagine you wouldn’t have lasted long in tech support if you hadn’t learned that skill. :-)
And yet, not to feel an emotion in the first place may obscure you to yourself—it’s a two-sided coin. To opt to not know what you’re feeling when I struggle to find out seems strange to me.
I think you’re misunderstanding what I said. I’m not obscuring my feelings from myself. I’m just aware of the moment when I choose what to feel, and I actively choose.
I’m not advocating never getting angry, just not doing it when it’s likely to impair your ability to communicate or function. If you choose to be offended, that’s a valid choice… but it should also be an active choice, not just the default.
I find it fairly easy to be frustrated without being angry at someone. It is, after all, my fault for assuming that someone is able to understand what I’m trying to argue, so there’s no point in being angry at them for my assumption. They might have a particularly virulent meme that won’t let them understand… should I get mad at them for a parasite? It seems pointless.
Edit—please disregard this post
Well, it seems I misunderstand your statement, “It is possible to not control anger but instead never even feel it in the first place, without effort or willpower.”
I know it is possible to experience anger, but control it and not act angry—there is a difference between having the feeling and acting on it. I know it is also possible to not feel anger, or to only feel anger later, when distanced from the situation. I’m ok with being aware of the feeling and not acting on it, but to get to the point where you don’t feel it is where I’m starting to doubt whether it’s really a net benefit.
And yes, I do understand that with understand / assumptions about other people, stuff that would have otherwise bothered me (or someone else) is no longer a source of anger. You changed your outlook and understanding of that type of situation so that your emotion is frustration and not anger. If that’s what you meant originally, I understand now.
Mostly I don’t even feel frustration, but instead sadness. I’d like to be able to help, but sometimes the best I can do is just be patient and try to explain clearly, and always immediately abandon my arguments if I find that I’m the one with the error.
Edit—please disregard this post