For what it’s worth, my reflex before reading a bunch of stuff here was closer to hearing “socially awkward man who can’t manage to attract women” was closer to thinking of various annoying men who have hung around me, who I find unattractive (sometimes at the skin-crawling level [1]), but who never cross a line to the point where I feel justified in telling them to go away. This can go on for years. It is no fun.
After reading these discussions, I conclude that my preconception was a case of availability bias (possibly amplified by a desire to not know how painful things are), and so I use a more abstract category.
[1] To repeat something from a previous discussion, this isn’t about being physically afraid. If I were, I’d be handling things differently. It also turned out to my surprise, that at least some men have never had the experience of that sort of revulsion. It seems to me that it’s not quite the same as not wanting to be around someone who just about everyone would think was overtly ugly, though women frequently agree (independently, I think) about some men being uncomfortable to be around.
It wouldn’t surprise me if there are specific elements of body language or facial expression which cause that sort of revulsion, but I don’t know what they are.
To repeat something from a previous discussion, this isn’t about being physically afraid.
My understanding is that it is an instinct intended to protect you from threats to your reproductive success, not threats to your survival. ie. I expect it to tend to encourage behaviors that will prevent pregnancy to losers more so than behaviors that prevent losers from killing you.
I don’t think people are highly optimized. Evolution aims for good enough, rather than best hypothetically possible, and when I say hypothetically possible, I mean hypotheses generated by people from a time when no one knows the limits of what’s evolutionarily possible.
I’ve had the skin crawl effect from men of varying status, though I admit the average status is on the low side.
Having a ‘repulsion/creepiness’ response to supplement an ‘attraction’ response seems like something to expect as an early, basic optimization. Something that would begin to be optimized before even bothering with things like human level intelligence.
Has anything like the repulsion response been seen in animals?
Something I don’t think I’ve seen discussed is that the men who set off the repulsion response seem to be pretty rare. I haven’t heard of the response being studied scientifically.
If PUA helps, it might not distinguish between men who have been ignored and men who have been actively avoided.
If PUA helps, it might not distinguish between men who have been ignored and men who have been actively avoided.
From what I understand of the philosophy a personal development program based on PUA would be expected and intended to reduce the amount that the guy is placed in the ‘ignored’ category while actually increasing the ‘actively avoided’ category. Because being ignored is useless (and ‘no fun’) while being actively avoided actually just saves time. Bell curves and blue and red charts apply.
There tends to be some lessons on how to reduce ‘creepiness’ in general because obviously being creepy in general is going to be a hindrance to the intended goals.
but who never cross a line to the point where I feel justified in telling them to go away. This can go on for years. It is no fun.
The obvious conclusion from these premises: If you had the belief that “This could go on for years and is no fun” is a valid justification for telling someone to go away then your life would contain less ‘no fun’.
That works for the future. You have to somehow acquire that belief in the first place, and it seems like something that would be hard to learn any way but experience.
If you find something that works for the past please let me know. That would be awesome. Kind of like timer-turner hack for relationships. You wouldn’t have to guess which relationships would work, you would just automatically select a relationship that would work by virtue of all the counterfactual bad relationships being pre-empted by the techniques that work for the past!
You have to somehow acquire that belief in the first place, and it seems like something that would be hard to learn any way but experience.
Or, like with many life lessons, by having good friends, role models and mentors. They help you notice that you’re making a silly mistake when you’ve been making it for an order of weeks not an order of years!
Amusing, and yes, my phrasing was imprecise—I wasn’t intending tautology.
My objection was that 1) she probably has already made this transition herself, and 2) telling people that this transition needs to be made is not providing much information unless they understand how to recognize such relationships, and learning to distinguish what kinds of things suck for years from those that suck right now but get awesome later is necessarily going to take years unless we convey much additional information (assuming it is sufficiently stable between people to allow communication of that information to be meaningful).
I haven’t made the transition in all cases. wedrifid’s advice might be useful.
I probably need to figure out where I want the line to be. It’s also a complicating factor when I’m thinking “I’d enjoy this person’s company if there were less of it and I wasn’t feeling pressured”.
Understood. It wasn’t so much a complaint directed at you, as at anyone who wanted to add more details.
Edited to clarify: That is to say, the negativity of the complaint, such as it was, was directed at the situation; the communicative content of the complaint was directed at anyone, including you.
It also turned out to my surprise, that at least some men have never had the experience of that sort of revulsion.
I haven’t experienced revulsion I would describe as ‘skin-crawling’, but I have experienced my scrotum shriveling up. This might be an idiom / physiological experience issue rather than a difference in life experience.
For what it’s worth, my reflex before reading a bunch of stuff here was closer to hearing “socially awkward man who can’t manage to attract women” was closer to thinking of various annoying men who have hung around me, who I find unattractive (sometimes at the skin-crawling level [1]), but who never cross a line to the point where I feel justified in telling them to go away. This can go on for years. It is no fun.
After reading these discussions, I conclude that my preconception was a case of availability bias (possibly amplified by a desire to not know how painful things are), and so I use a more abstract category.
[1] To repeat something from a previous discussion, this isn’t about being physically afraid. If I were, I’d be handling things differently. It also turned out to my surprise, that at least some men have never had the experience of that sort of revulsion. It seems to me that it’s not quite the same as not wanting to be around someone who just about everyone would think was overtly ugly, though women frequently agree (independently, I think) about some men being uncomfortable to be around.
It wouldn’t surprise me if there are specific elements of body language or facial expression which cause that sort of revulsion, but I don’t know what they are.
My understanding is that it is an instinct intended to protect you from threats to your reproductive success, not threats to your survival. ie. I expect it to tend to encourage behaviors that will prevent pregnancy to losers more so than behaviors that prevent losers from killing you.
I don’t think people are highly optimized. Evolution aims for good enough, rather than best hypothetically possible, and when I say hypothetically possible, I mean hypotheses generated by people from a time when no one knows the limits of what’s evolutionarily possible.
I’ve had the skin crawl effect from men of varying status, though I admit the average status is on the low side.
Having a ‘repulsion/creepiness’ response to supplement an ‘attraction’ response seems like something to expect as an early, basic optimization. Something that would begin to be optimized before even bothering with things like human level intelligence.
Has anything like the repulsion response been seen in animals?
Something I don’t think I’ve seen discussed is that the men who set off the repulsion response seem to be pretty rare. I haven’t heard of the response being studied scientifically.
If PUA helps, it might not distinguish between men who have been ignored and men who have been actively avoided.
From what I understand of the philosophy a personal development program based on PUA would be expected and intended to reduce the amount that the guy is placed in the ‘ignored’ category while actually increasing the ‘actively avoided’ category. Because being ignored is useless (and ‘no fun’) while being actively avoided actually just saves time. Bell curves and blue and red charts apply.
There tends to be some lessons on how to reduce ‘creepiness’ in general because obviously being creepy in general is going to be a hindrance to the intended goals.
My brief searching for ‘creepiness research’ didn’t turn up much either. But to be honest I don’t really know where to look. :)
Thanks a lot! Your comment made something click for me.
The obvious conclusion from these premises: If you had the belief that “This could go on for years and is no fun” is a valid justification for telling someone to go away then your life would contain less ‘no fun’.
That works for the future. You have to somehow acquire that belief in the first place, and it seems like something that would be hard to learn any way but experience.
If you find something that works for the past please let me know. That would be awesome. Kind of like timer-turner hack for relationships. You wouldn’t have to guess which relationships would work, you would just automatically select a relationship that would work by virtue of all the counterfactual bad relationships being pre-empted by the techniques that work for the past!
Or, like with many life lessons, by having good friends, role models and mentors. They help you notice that you’re making a silly mistake when you’ve been making it for an order of weeks not an order of years!
Amusing, and yes, my phrasing was imprecise—I wasn’t intending tautology.
My objection was that 1) she probably has already made this transition herself, and 2) telling people that this transition needs to be made is not providing much information unless they understand how to recognize such relationships, and learning to distinguish what kinds of things suck for years from those that suck right now but get awesome later is necessarily going to take years unless we convey much additional information (assuming it is sufficiently stable between people to allow communication of that information to be meaningful).
I haven’t made the transition in all cases. wedrifid’s advice might be useful.
I probably need to figure out where I want the line to be. It’s also a complicating factor when I’m thinking “I’d enjoy this person’s company if there were less of it and I wasn’t feeling pressured”.
I hope not. I was trying to get as close as possible to a pure deduction from the quote so as to be almost entirely impersonal.
Understood. It wasn’t so much a complaint directed at you, as at anyone who wanted to add more details.
Edited to clarify: That is to say, the negativity of the complaint, such as it was, was directed at the situation; the communicative content of the complaint was directed at anyone, including you.
I haven’t experienced revulsion I would describe as ‘skin-crawling’, but I have experienced my scrotum shriveling up. This might be an idiom / physiological experience issue rather than a difference in life experience.