I agree as far as this goes. But remember that we don’t chiefly want to prevent people calling women ugly. We chiefly want to prevent this, because we think it increases actual rape. (The cited research does not establish this with any clarity, but it does establish that you left out another potential distorting factor.)
I think the causation may be going the other way: it’s that men who are willing to rape are more likely to enjoy rape jokes, not that men who read rape jokes thereby become more willing to rape.
Another theory I’ve heard (although not one relevant to this particular study, except maybe in an ecological sense) is that rape jokes signal to predators that non-predatory men aren’t going to socially punish them.
Do you mean negative interpretations in general, or that particular sort of negative interpretation?
I would think ill of someone who told blonde jokes, especially if they told a bunch of them. To my mind, anyone who gives a lot of time to blonde jokes is probably making themselves less able to see intelligence in blonde women. I haven’t tested this belief, I’m just going on plausibility.
Late response: I tend to believe in causation of the sort that Oligopsony mentions, because of Altemeyer’s research on Social Dominance Orientation and the oddly named Right-Wing Authoritarian scale. Though the conclusion involves two inferences that I personally haven’t seen anyone test.
I agree as far as this goes. But remember that we don’t chiefly want to prevent people calling women ugly. We chiefly want to prevent this, because we think it increases actual rape.
Is the ‘we’ royal, referring to some specific group you are a part of or a normative presumption that I, and the people in some group of which I am a part all must have this attitude? Because for my part I am perfectly ok with being outraged at insulting women by calling them ugly for its own sake and not due to any belief in some complicated causal chain whereby talking about ugliness causes rape and the torture of puppies.
Would you actually feel surprised if you found out the belief that women only date jerks causally increases talk of rape fantasies, and that this increases rape?
I would be somewhat skeptical, read the details of such a study closely and in particular look at the degree of the purported effect as well as the significance. I would be equally as surprised to find that belief that women only dated jerks reduced incidence of rape due to the other obvious causal chain (involving reducing sexual frustration by identifying and implementing those elements of ‘jerkiness’ that are effective).
Yvain seems to have deleted the strawman I responded to (which supports the theory that he erred due to writing a long comment). By “we” I mean people who object to the unproven assertion that women only like jerks. The great-grandparent claims that a “very large contingent” of us make shy men feel bad. Yvain uses the analogy of calling a woman ugly, and originally claimed that people felt like they couldn’t condemn one harm without committing the other.
Nobody on Earth literally thinks that way. Whatever Yvain observed likely stemmed from the desire to prevent rape. Though quite possibly some of it went too far or got tied up with other motives.
If you mean the quoted claim, does your previous misunderstanding cause you to update your belief in your own motive-grasping powers?
I don’t believe I said I misunderstood anything and looking back at what I have previously said doesn’t lead me to that conclusion either. I just didn’t see any point in being more confrontational than polite disagreement. (And I give myself a big burst of self-approval reward for my restraint.)
Based on other times I have noticed that I misunderstood something I expect that I would update rather significantly if such were the case. I hate making mistakes like that.
I agree as far as this goes. But remember that we don’t chiefly want to prevent people calling women ugly. We chiefly want to prevent this, because we think it increases actual rape. (The cited research does not establish this with any clarity, but it does establish that you left out another potential distorting factor.)
Would you actually feel surprised if you found out the belief that women only date jerks causally increases talk of rape fantasies, and that this increases rape? What about the belief that a simple and general method will allow guys to have sex with the women they desire?
I think the causation may be going the other way: it’s that men who are willing to rape are more likely to enjoy rape jokes, not that men who read rape jokes thereby become more willing to rape.
Another theory I’ve heard (although not one relevant to this particular study, except maybe in an ecological sense) is that rape jokes signal to predators that non-predatory men aren’t going to socially punish them.
Very plausible, similar things could be said of racist jokes.
I can’t think of a negative interpretation of blonde jokes though.
Do you mean negative interpretations in general, or that particular sort of negative interpretation?
I would think ill of someone who told blonde jokes, especially if they told a bunch of them. To my mind, anyone who gives a lot of time to blonde jokes is probably making themselves less able to see intelligence in blonde women. I haven’t tested this belief, I’m just going on plausibility.
Late response: I tend to believe in causation of the sort that Oligopsony mentions, because of Altemeyer’s research on Social Dominance Orientation and the oddly named Right-Wing Authoritarian scale. Though the conclusion involves two inferences that I personally haven’t seen anyone test.
Is the ‘we’ royal, referring to some specific group you are a part of or a normative presumption that I, and the people in some group of which I am a part all must have this attitude? Because for my part I am perfectly ok with being outraged at insulting women by calling them ugly for its own sake and not due to any belief in some complicated causal chain whereby talking about ugliness causes rape and the torture of puppies.
I would be somewhat skeptical, read the details of such a study closely and in particular look at the degree of the purported effect as well as the significance. I would be equally as surprised to find that belief that women only dated jerks reduced incidence of rape due to the other obvious causal chain (involving reducing sexual frustration by identifying and implementing those elements of ‘jerkiness’ that are effective).
Yvain seems to have deleted the strawman I responded to (which supports the theory that he erred due to writing a long comment). By “we” I mean people who object to the unproven assertion that women only like jerks. The great-grandparent claims that a “very large contingent” of us make shy men feel bad. Yvain uses the analogy of calling a woman ugly, and originally claimed that people felt like they couldn’t condemn one harm without committing the other.
Nobody on Earth literally thinks that way. Whatever Yvain observed likely stemmed from the desire to prevent rape. Though quite possibly some of it went too far or got tied up with other motives.
Ok. I don’t believe your claim about the way the world is but I think I understand what you are saying.
If you mean the quoted claim, does your previous misunderstanding cause you to update your belief in your own motive-grasping powers?
I don’t believe I said I misunderstood anything and looking back at what I have previously said doesn’t lead me to that conclusion either. I just didn’t see any point in being more confrontational than polite disagreement. (And I give myself a big burst of self-approval reward for my restraint.)
Based on other times I have noticed that I misunderstood something I expect that I would update rather significantly if such were the case. I hate making mistakes like that.