The paragraph that follows “If it’s not about utilitarian ethics, what is it about?” is me running through the first handful of ethical frameworks that came to mind. While we don’t have a perfect and universal ethical system, it can be useful to figure out what system is getting used when having ethical discussions- a deontologist and a consequentialist could talk in circles for hours around an object level issue without coming any closer to a solution. We are talking morals, and I’m trying to figure out what moral system you’re using so we can start from common ground. You mention utilitarian ethics in the reason you think it’s wrong to kill animals, but then you talk about the fact that they own themselves and taking away freedom in a way that isn’t usually something utilitarianism cares about. To be clear, you don’t need to fit into the box of a philosophy, but I care about how much they’re suffering due to the suffering and it sounds like you do as well.
I’m using the word “suboptimal” to mean a state of affairs that is less than the highest standard. For example, I have a crick in my neck from looking down at my laptop right now, and there is not a fruit smoothie in my hand even though I want one. My life would be closer to optimal if I did not have a crick in my neck and did have a smoothie. My life would also be suboptimal if I was intense chronic pain. Suboptimal is a very broad term, I agree, but I think my usage of it is correct. How do you define that word?
Again, I go out of my way to avoid eating things that came from a tiny box where they got beaten. A large majority of the meat I eat came from things that hung out in pastures of several hundred to a thousand acres of grass and hillside. I apologize for posting in reply to myself, where I think it got missed, but if you want it here is what I think is the crux of my belief.
It’s an aside, but I do my daily dose of exercise and eat decently healthy. What I consider “preserving my life” is weird enough that it could probably be its own conversation though :)
Thank you for linking the crux. I’ll try to explain my morality as well.
I’m using the word “suboptimal” to mean a state of affairs that is less than the highest standard. For example, I have a crick in my neck from looking down at my laptop right now, and there is not a fruit smoothie in my hand even though I want one. My life would be closer to optimal if I did not have a crick in my neck and did have a smoothie. My life would also be suboptimal if I was intense chronic pain. Suboptimal is a very broad term, I agree, but I think my usage of it is correct. How do you define that word?
So basically I don’t care as much about positive utility compared to negative utility. I’ll get on to that.
Alright so your crux could possibly be addressed by the below; it isn’t really about the fact that the majority of humans prefer nonexisting as you say, its more explaining why there would be a ‘preference’ in non existence versus an existence of suffering, but I think it addresses your first point nonetheless:
If you’re interested in a double crux, here’s my half; if a majority of humans preferred not existing in the first place vs existing and having their lives cut short, then I would update strongly away from wanting farm animals being properly (that is, given enough space and exercise and food before being humanely killed) raised for meat.
One of the main points in it is this: “Intuitions like “Making people happy rather than making happy people” are linked to the view that non-existence does not constitute a deplorable state. Proponents of this view reason as follows: The suffering and/or frustrated preferences of a being constitute a real, tangible problem for that being. By contrast, non-existence is free of moral predicaments for any evaluating agent, given that per definitionem no such agent exists. Why, then, might we be tempted to consider non-existence a problem? Non-existence may seem unsettling to us, because from the perspective of existing beings, no-longer-existing is a daunting prospect. Importantly however, death or no-longer-existing differs fundamentally from never having been born, in that it is typically preceded and accompanied by suffering and/or frustrated preferences. Ultimately, any uneasiness about never having been born can only be explained by attitudes of those who do already live.”
This is basically my view on abortion, nonhuman animal ethics, etc. I find a key distinction between painlessly killing a being that is already existing versus a being never existing at all. In other words, I think beings are worthy of moral consideration once they become conscious, even if they become unconscious for a time after that. However I do not find any beings that have never been conscious worthy of any consideration. The above article also notes the empathy gap, which I think is of key importance when talking about suffering.
So as you guessed it, I’m not a pure utilitarian. The best I would describe it besides the above part (which explains a majority of my view) would be I think that that having choice, or autonomy, gives life meaning (I don’t think the only meaning) to conscious beings. This is why I’m against a robot reprogramming humans so they enjoy mindlessly picking up a boulder. I think that all conscious beings should have the right to themselves because if they don’t have a right the right to themselves what do they have? This means that their life (and death) is their choice. Other people acting for them is acting in an authoritarian way against their choices. It is inherently authoritarian to kill any conscious being as you are taking away their autonomy of life. Conscious beings, when not suffering, enjoy life and have an interest in further living. This is why I wouldn’t want them killed, even painlessly.
Just wondering, why do you think its wrong to kill sleeping humans?
I think it’s wrong to kill sleeping humans both because I’m often a sleeping human that doesn’t want to be killed, and because I would see it as killing a (somewhat distant) part of myself. It’s half “I won’t kill you if you won’t kill me” and half valuing the human gene code and the arrangements of thoughts that make up a human mind. I want humanity in the abstract to thrive, regardless of how I might feel about any individual part of it.
I think I agree with the bulk of the article you linked, but don’t think I agree that it resolves my crux. To quote its quote-
This intuition is epitomised in Jan Narveson’s (1973) statement, “We are in favor of making people happy, but neutral about making happy people.”
I do not believe we are obliged to create entities (be they humans, cows, insects, or any other category) but we are not obliged not to do so. I think we are obliged to avoid creating entities that would prefer not to have been created. That still leaves us the option of creating entities that would prefer to have been created if we want to- for example, nobody is obliged to have children, but if they want to have children they can as long as they reasonably suspect those children would want to have existed. If I want cows to exist, I can morally cause that to happen as long as I take reasonable precautions to make sure they prefer existing. As you say, they might well not want to exist if that existence is being locked in a box and hurt. As I say, they probably do want to exist if that existence is wandering around a green pasture with the herd.
I’d like to grab an example from the article you linked, the one about the Buddhist monks in the collapsing temple. As it says
Imagine a large temple filled with 1,000 Buddhist monks who are all absorbed in meditation; their minds are at rest in flawless contentment. Unfortunately, the whole temple will collapse in ten minutes and all the monks will be killed. You cannot do anything to prevent the temple from collapsing, but you have the option to press a button that will release a gaseous designer drug into the temple. The drug will reliably produce extreme heights of pleasure and euphoria with no side effects. Would you press the button? [footnote: Alternatively, to avoid potentially distorting ideas about, for example, violating their autonomy: Would the accidental release (by environmental forces) of such a gaseous compound make the world better?]
...
It is tempting to feel roughly indifferent here: Pressing the button seems nice, and assuming it produces no harm or panic in the temple, it may be hard to imagine how it would be something bad. At the same time, it does not seem particularly important or morally pressing to push the button.
This is what I was trying to get at with the usage of “suboptimal” above. If I’m going to encourage the creation of cows for me to eat, I’m obliged to make their existence generally positive, but I’m not obliged to make that existence euphoric. Positive sum, but not optimal.
While a world where one’s life and death is one’s own choice is a good world in my view, I can’t find myself getting axiomatically worked up over others acting on my behalf. I’m willing to make acausial deals- for example, if a man found me collapsed on the side of the road and only took me to the hospital because he figured I’d be willing to pay him for doing so when I woke up, I’d pay him. I prefer a world with a strong authority that promises to find and kill anyone besides the authority that kills a human to one without any strong authority, and even though I would try and escape justice in the event that I committed murder I wouldn’t argue that the authority was doing anything immoral. (Both examples have details that are worth adjusting, such as how much I’d be willing to pay the rescuer or mitigating factors such as manslaughter vs first degree murder, but my reactions to which seem to point at different values than you.)
Assuming your second sentence was supposed to end with ”...suffering during their lives” my response is I mostly do so when I’m not the one picking the source (company functions, family reunions, etc) or on occasions where I’m traveling and nothing else presents itself. (I am consequentalist enough that ~1% of my food budget going to those sorts of operations doesn’t bother me, since the goal of reducing their income from me is being achieved, though I’ll also grant that this is the largest inconsistency in my own ethics on this subject I see.)
Assuming your third sentence was supposed to read ”...you don’t carry over the...” my response is that cows can neither assassinate me in my bed nor understand treaties of nonaggression, nor do they share human patterns of thought or genes except at a distant remove.
Are you open to being persuaded to eat ‘cruelty free’ meat? Is there some fact or framing which might change your mind?
I don’t kill humans for the same reason you do though. I could possibly be persuaded, but I’m not exactly sure what it would be. I think it would be something of the sort following: You would either have to convince me killing sleeping (I’m just gonna use sleep as equivalent to cruelty free for convenience sake) humans is ethically fine OR that cows are different in some way other than logistically speaking (I wouldn’t say that the fact that cows can’t kill you is morals, that’s more practicality; so something other than the two (redemption killing or treatise) things you just named). Or to convince me that cows should not have the right to live on their lives all the way through. Something along these lines, and if you’re going to go with how you were talking about different patterns of thought you’d have to be more specific.
You would possibly have to attack my underlying ethics since I don’t kill sleeping humans for other reasons as we’ve discuss and that would be harder to change my opinion on.
If this is unclear, just ask me to rephrase. I’ll just try to rephrase it below.
1) Killing humans without cruelty is ethical (I don’t know you want to convince me of this one)
2) Humans and cows are different in some way other than treatise or redemption killing so that cows don’t have the right to life
3) Or to change my view of “While a world where one’s life and death is one’s own choice is a good world in my view, I can’t find myself getting axiomatically worked up over others acting on my behalf. I’m willing to make acausial deals- for example,”
Arguments that will not convince me is that “cows are not out kind, they are too far away from us, they are not human.”
I also reread your post above.
I do not believe we are obliged to create entities (be they humans, cows, insects, or any other category) but we are not obliged not to do so. I think we are obliged to avoid creating entities that would prefer not to have been created. That still leaves us the option of creating entities that would prefer to have been created if we want to- for example, nobody is obliged to have children, but if they want to have children they can as long as they reasonably suspect those children would want to have existed. If I want cows to exist, I can morally cause that to happen as long as I take reasonable precautions to make sure they prefer existing. As you say, they might well not want to exist if that existence is being locked in a box and hurt. As I say, they probably do want to exist if that existence is wandering around a green pasture with the herd.
I agree with this. I think that beings can be created. My problem is ending already existing ones once they are created.
And like you continued on. I agree that their existence doesn’t have to be perfect. We should just make it not horrible. Again, my problem is the force ending.
I’m gonna add in one more thing. I think this is an emotional appeal, but I think its true regardless. Do you think that your opinion would change if you interacted with other animals like cows on a more personal level more often (or possibly at all) and actually saw them as individuals rather than an idealized “cow.” And if you have interacted a lots with cows on a personal level (such as farming), I’d like to hear your opinion as well.
Content warning to follow for response to emotional appeal and for unrepentant animal execution.
I grew up on a small dairy farm (~40 head) that kept a handful of beef cattle. I spent more time with the dairy herd- they’re a lot safer and the need to milk them every day means they get more of a farmhand’s attention- but I’ve got some pretty fond memories of moving the beef cows from pasture to pasture. We named one Chief, who always pushed to be first in line, and another Teriyaki because of an odd auburn patch on his flank. When I was studying a part for a play, I used to balance on part of their fence while reciting my lines and Washington would usually mill around near me. He’d do that for anyone who was saying literally anything as long as your voice hadn’t dropped, and sometimes when cleaning the stalls I’d make up stories to tell him. I never figured out why, but Washington’s manure was always fairly compact and dry for a cow, which made mucking his stall much easier.
Washington was also the first animal larger than a mouse I ever killed. It’s easier than you’d think. He didn’t even realize something was wrong about being lead into a back room he’d never been in before, he just followed Chief in and then stood around placidly when we blocked the exit Chief had just left through. We got everything set up (a ton of animal can be dangerous if it just falls uncontrolled) and the adults offered to let me do it. Killing did not feel like some special magic or momentous occasion. The rest of the afternoon was educational even though I only watched, since you want to butcher and clean an animal as soon as you can. When we ate the first meal made out of Washington we included him in the prayer before the meal, mentioned our favourite stories about him and that we were glad he lived and glad he would fuel our lives and that he had made way for another creature to live the good life he did.
My opinion? Steak is delicious.
Chief and Teriyaki probably remembered Washington, but I highly doubt any of that knowledge passed on to his successor Glaucon even though there was overlap in their lives. Washington would be dead by now anyway- I was maybe twelve at the time we ate him- and what remains is the memories I have, and the shared family he has from nephews and so on being raised in the same way now. This is what I mean by patterns of thought- my great grandfather is dead, but since I’ve read his journal and heard stories about him from my father and grandmother, not every piece of him is gone. Odd phrases, family recipes, habits of thought, weird but cherished stories, these float alongside DNA down the generations. If every cow died tomorrow, humans would remember them for at least a thousand years. If every human died tomorrow, cows wouldn’t remember us beyond a generation.
I’ll read whatever you write in response to this, but I don’t think there’s much more to be gained from this conversation. You’ve moved from asking for perspectives to attempting to persuade via abstract means to attempting to persuade via emotional means, and while I don’t begrudge you for that, I do think it’s a sign neither of us are going to make any more headway.
The paragraph that follows “If it’s not about utilitarian ethics, what is it about?” is me running through the first handful of ethical frameworks that came to mind. While we don’t have a perfect and universal ethical system, it can be useful to figure out what system is getting used when having ethical discussions- a deontologist and a consequentialist could talk in circles for hours around an object level issue without coming any closer to a solution. We are talking morals, and I’m trying to figure out what moral system you’re using so we can start from common ground. You mention utilitarian ethics in the reason you think it’s wrong to kill animals, but then you talk about the fact that they own themselves and taking away freedom in a way that isn’t usually something utilitarianism cares about. To be clear, you don’t need to fit into the box of a philosophy, but I care about how much they’re suffering due to the suffering and it sounds like you do as well.
I’m using the word “suboptimal” to mean a state of affairs that is less than the highest standard. For example, I have a crick in my neck from looking down at my laptop right now, and there is not a fruit smoothie in my hand even though I want one. My life would be closer to optimal if I did not have a crick in my neck and did have a smoothie. My life would also be suboptimal if I was intense chronic pain. Suboptimal is a very broad term, I agree, but I think my usage of it is correct. How do you define that word?
Again, I go out of my way to avoid eating things that came from a tiny box where they got beaten. A large majority of the meat I eat came from things that hung out in pastures of several hundred to a thousand acres of grass and hillside. I apologize for posting in reply to myself, where I think it got missed, but if you want it here is what I think is the crux of my belief.
It’s an aside, but I do my daily dose of exercise and eat decently healthy. What I consider “preserving my life” is weird enough that it could probably be its own conversation though :)
Sure, I could be interested in hearing this as a different topic.
Thank you for linking the crux. I’ll try to explain my morality as well.
So basically I don’t care as much about positive utility compared to negative utility. I’ll get on to that.
Alright so your crux could possibly be addressed by the below; it isn’t really about the fact that the majority of humans prefer nonexisting as you say, its more explaining why there would be a ‘preference’ in non existence versus an existence of suffering, but I think it addresses your first point nonetheless:
I think you may find this a very interesting read: https://foundational-research.org/the-case-for-suffering-focused-ethics/
One of the main points in it is this: “Intuitions like “Making people happy rather than making happy people” are linked to the view that non-existence does not constitute a deplorable state. Proponents of this view reason as follows: The suffering and/or frustrated preferences of a being constitute a real, tangible problem for that being. By contrast, non-existence is free of moral predicaments for any evaluating agent, given that per definitionem no such agent exists. Why, then, might we be tempted to consider non-existence a problem? Non-existence may seem unsettling to us, because from the perspective of existing beings, no-longer-existing is a daunting prospect. Importantly however, death or no-longer-existing differs fundamentally from never having been born, in that it is typically preceded and accompanied by suffering and/or frustrated preferences. Ultimately, any uneasiness about never having been born can only be explained by attitudes of those who do already live.”
This is basically my view on abortion, nonhuman animal ethics, etc. I find a key distinction between painlessly killing a being that is already existing versus a being never existing at all. In other words, I think beings are worthy of moral consideration once they become conscious, even if they become unconscious for a time after that. However I do not find any beings that have never been conscious worthy of any consideration. The above article also notes the empathy gap, which I think is of key importance when talking about suffering.
So as you guessed it, I’m not a pure utilitarian. The best I would describe it besides the above part (which explains a majority of my view) would be I think that that having choice, or autonomy, gives life meaning (I don’t think the only meaning) to conscious beings. This is why I’m against a robot reprogramming humans so they enjoy mindlessly picking up a boulder. I think that all conscious beings should have the right to themselves because if they don’t have a right the right to themselves what do they have? This means that their life (and death) is their choice. Other people acting for them is acting in an authoritarian way against their choices. It is inherently authoritarian to kill any conscious being as you are taking away their autonomy of life. Conscious beings, when not suffering, enjoy life and have an interest in further living. This is why I wouldn’t want them killed, even painlessly.
Just wondering, why do you think its wrong to kill sleeping humans?
I think it’s wrong to kill sleeping humans both because I’m often a sleeping human that doesn’t want to be killed, and because I would see it as killing a (somewhat distant) part of myself. It’s half “I won’t kill you if you won’t kill me” and half valuing the human gene code and the arrangements of thoughts that make up a human mind. I want humanity in the abstract to thrive, regardless of how I might feel about any individual part of it.
I think I agree with the bulk of the article you linked, but don’t think I agree that it resolves my crux. To quote its quote-
I do not believe we are obliged to create entities (be they humans, cows, insects, or any other category) but we are not obliged not to do so. I think we are obliged to avoid creating entities that would prefer not to have been created. That still leaves us the option of creating entities that would prefer to have been created if we want to- for example, nobody is obliged to have children, but if they want to have children they can as long as they reasonably suspect those children would want to have existed. If I want cows to exist, I can morally cause that to happen as long as I take reasonable precautions to make sure they prefer existing. As you say, they might well not want to exist if that existence is being locked in a box and hurt. As I say, they probably do want to exist if that existence is wandering around a green pasture with the herd.
I’d like to grab an example from the article you linked, the one about the Buddhist monks in the collapsing temple. As it says
This is what I was trying to get at with the usage of “suboptimal” above. If I’m going to encourage the creation of cows for me to eat, I’m obliged to make their existence generally positive, but I’m not obliged to make that existence euphoric. Positive sum, but not optimal.
While a world where one’s life and death is one’s own choice is a good world in my view, I can’t find myself getting axiomatically worked up over others acting on my behalf. I’m willing to make acausial deals- for example, if a man found me collapsed on the side of the road and only took me to the hospital because he figured I’d be willing to pay him for doing so when I woke up, I’d pay him. I prefer a world with a strong authority that promises to find and kill anyone besides the authority that kills a human to one without any strong authority, and even though I would try and escape justice in the event that I committed murder I wouldn’t argue that the authority was doing anything immoral. (Both examples have details that are worth adjusting, such as how much I’d be willing to pay the rescuer or mitigating factors such as manslaughter vs first degree murder, but my reactions to which seem to point at different values than you.)
How do you justify when you don’t eat ‘cruelty free’ meat? Those animals are suffering during their.
My other question would be, I don’t understand why you don’t care over the logic of the first paragraph to cows?
I do get what you’re saying with creating beings that do have a decent life.
Assuming your second sentence was supposed to end with ”...suffering during their lives” my response is I mostly do so when I’m not the one picking the source (company functions, family reunions, etc) or on occasions where I’m traveling and nothing else presents itself. (I am consequentalist enough that ~1% of my food budget going to those sorts of operations doesn’t bother me, since the goal of reducing their income from me is being achieved, though I’ll also grant that this is the largest inconsistency in my own ethics on this subject I see.)
Assuming your third sentence was supposed to read ”...you don’t carry over the...” my response is that cows can neither assassinate me in my bed nor understand treaties of nonaggression, nor do they share human patterns of thought or genes except at a distant remove.
Are you open to being persuaded to eat ‘cruelty free’ meat? Is there some fact or framing which might change your mind?
I don’t kill humans for the same reason you do though. I could possibly be persuaded, but I’m not exactly sure what it would be. I think it would be something of the sort following: You would either have to convince me killing sleeping (I’m just gonna use sleep as equivalent to cruelty free for convenience sake) humans is ethically fine OR that cows are different in some way other than logistically speaking (I wouldn’t say that the fact that cows can’t kill you is morals, that’s more practicality; so something other than the two (redemption killing or treatise) things you just named). Or to convince me that cows should not have the right to live on their lives all the way through. Something along these lines, and if you’re going to go with how you were talking about different patterns of thought you’d have to be more specific.
You would possibly have to attack my underlying ethics since I don’t kill sleeping humans for other reasons as we’ve discuss and that would be harder to change my opinion on.
If this is unclear, just ask me to rephrase. I’ll just try to rephrase it below.
1) Killing humans without cruelty is ethical (I don’t know you want to convince me of this one) 2) Humans and cows are different in some way other than treatise or redemption killing so that cows don’t have the right to life 3) Or to change my view of “While a world where one’s life and death is one’s own choice is a good world in my view, I can’t find myself getting axiomatically worked up over others acting on my behalf. I’m willing to make acausial deals- for example,”
Arguments that will not convince me is that “cows are not out kind, they are too far away from us, they are not human.”
I also reread your post above.
I agree with this. I think that beings can be created. My problem is ending already existing ones once they are created.
And like you continued on. I agree that their existence doesn’t have to be perfect. We should just make it not horrible. Again, my problem is the force ending.
I’m gonna add in one more thing. I think this is an emotional appeal, but I think its true regardless. Do you think that your opinion would change if you interacted with other animals like cows on a more personal level more often (or possibly at all) and actually saw them as individuals rather than an idealized “cow.” And if you have interacted a lots with cows on a personal level (such as farming), I’d like to hear your opinion as well.
Content warning to follow for response to emotional appeal and for unrepentant animal execution.
I grew up on a small dairy farm (~40 head) that kept a handful of beef cattle. I spent more time with the dairy herd- they’re a lot safer and the need to milk them every day means they get more of a farmhand’s attention- but I’ve got some pretty fond memories of moving the beef cows from pasture to pasture. We named one Chief, who always pushed to be first in line, and another Teriyaki because of an odd auburn patch on his flank. When I was studying a part for a play, I used to balance on part of their fence while reciting my lines and Washington would usually mill around near me. He’d do that for anyone who was saying literally anything as long as your voice hadn’t dropped, and sometimes when cleaning the stalls I’d make up stories to tell him. I never figured out why, but Washington’s manure was always fairly compact and dry for a cow, which made mucking his stall much easier.
Washington was also the first animal larger than a mouse I ever killed. It’s easier than you’d think. He didn’t even realize something was wrong about being lead into a back room he’d never been in before, he just followed Chief in and then stood around placidly when we blocked the exit Chief had just left through. We got everything set up (a ton of animal can be dangerous if it just falls uncontrolled) and the adults offered to let me do it. Killing did not feel like some special magic or momentous occasion. The rest of the afternoon was educational even though I only watched, since you want to butcher and clean an animal as soon as you can. When we ate the first meal made out of Washington we included him in the prayer before the meal, mentioned our favourite stories about him and that we were glad he lived and glad he would fuel our lives and that he had made way for another creature to live the good life he did.
My opinion? Steak is delicious.
Chief and Teriyaki probably remembered Washington, but I highly doubt any of that knowledge passed on to his successor Glaucon even though there was overlap in their lives. Washington would be dead by now anyway- I was maybe twelve at the time we ate him- and what remains is the memories I have, and the shared family he has from nephews and so on being raised in the same way now. This is what I mean by patterns of thought- my great grandfather is dead, but since I’ve read his journal and heard stories about him from my father and grandmother, not every piece of him is gone. Odd phrases, family recipes, habits of thought, weird but cherished stories, these float alongside DNA down the generations. If every cow died tomorrow, humans would remember them for at least a thousand years. If every human died tomorrow, cows wouldn’t remember us beyond a generation.
I’ll read whatever you write in response to this, but I don’t think there’s much more to be gained from this conversation. You’ve moved from asking for perspectives to attempting to persuade via abstract means to attempting to persuade via emotional means, and while I don’t begrudge you for that, I do think it’s a sign neither of us are going to make any more headway.
Nice talking to you, and have a good day :)
A great perspective from personal experience. Well recounted.