Assuming your second sentence was supposed to end with ”...suffering during their lives” my response is I mostly do so when I’m not the one picking the source (company functions, family reunions, etc) or on occasions where I’m traveling and nothing else presents itself. (I am consequentalist enough that ~1% of my food budget going to those sorts of operations doesn’t bother me, since the goal of reducing their income from me is being achieved, though I’ll also grant that this is the largest inconsistency in my own ethics on this subject I see.)
Assuming your third sentence was supposed to read ”...you don’t carry over the...” my response is that cows can neither assassinate me in my bed nor understand treaties of nonaggression, nor do they share human patterns of thought or genes except at a distant remove.
Are you open to being persuaded to eat ‘cruelty free’ meat? Is there some fact or framing which might change your mind?
I don’t kill humans for the same reason you do though. I could possibly be persuaded, but I’m not exactly sure what it would be. I think it would be something of the sort following: You would either have to convince me killing sleeping (I’m just gonna use sleep as equivalent to cruelty free for convenience sake) humans is ethically fine OR that cows are different in some way other than logistically speaking (I wouldn’t say that the fact that cows can’t kill you is morals, that’s more practicality; so something other than the two (redemption killing or treatise) things you just named). Or to convince me that cows should not have the right to live on their lives all the way through. Something along these lines, and if you’re going to go with how you were talking about different patterns of thought you’d have to be more specific.
You would possibly have to attack my underlying ethics since I don’t kill sleeping humans for other reasons as we’ve discuss and that would be harder to change my opinion on.
If this is unclear, just ask me to rephrase. I’ll just try to rephrase it below.
1) Killing humans without cruelty is ethical (I don’t know you want to convince me of this one)
2) Humans and cows are different in some way other than treatise or redemption killing so that cows don’t have the right to life
3) Or to change my view of “While a world where one’s life and death is one’s own choice is a good world in my view, I can’t find myself getting axiomatically worked up over others acting on my behalf. I’m willing to make acausial deals- for example,”
Arguments that will not convince me is that “cows are not out kind, they are too far away from us, they are not human.”
I also reread your post above.
I do not believe we are obliged to create entities (be they humans, cows, insects, or any other category) but we are not obliged not to do so. I think we are obliged to avoid creating entities that would prefer not to have been created. That still leaves us the option of creating entities that would prefer to have been created if we want to- for example, nobody is obliged to have children, but if they want to have children they can as long as they reasonably suspect those children would want to have existed. If I want cows to exist, I can morally cause that to happen as long as I take reasonable precautions to make sure they prefer existing. As you say, they might well not want to exist if that existence is being locked in a box and hurt. As I say, they probably do want to exist if that existence is wandering around a green pasture with the herd.
I agree with this. I think that beings can be created. My problem is ending already existing ones once they are created.
And like you continued on. I agree that their existence doesn’t have to be perfect. We should just make it not horrible. Again, my problem is the force ending.
I’m gonna add in one more thing. I think this is an emotional appeal, but I think its true regardless. Do you think that your opinion would change if you interacted with other animals like cows on a more personal level more often (or possibly at all) and actually saw them as individuals rather than an idealized “cow.” And if you have interacted a lots with cows on a personal level (such as farming), I’d like to hear your opinion as well.
Content warning to follow for response to emotional appeal and for unrepentant animal execution.
I grew up on a small dairy farm (~40 head) that kept a handful of beef cattle. I spent more time with the dairy herd- they’re a lot safer and the need to milk them every day means they get more of a farmhand’s attention- but I’ve got some pretty fond memories of moving the beef cows from pasture to pasture. We named one Chief, who always pushed to be first in line, and another Teriyaki because of an odd auburn patch on his flank. When I was studying a part for a play, I used to balance on part of their fence while reciting my lines and Washington would usually mill around near me. He’d do that for anyone who was saying literally anything as long as your voice hadn’t dropped, and sometimes when cleaning the stalls I’d make up stories to tell him. I never figured out why, but Washington’s manure was always fairly compact and dry for a cow, which made mucking his stall much easier.
Washington was also the first animal larger than a mouse I ever killed. It’s easier than you’d think. He didn’t even realize something was wrong about being lead into a back room he’d never been in before, he just followed Chief in and then stood around placidly when we blocked the exit Chief had just left through. We got everything set up (a ton of animal can be dangerous if it just falls uncontrolled) and the adults offered to let me do it. Killing did not feel like some special magic or momentous occasion. The rest of the afternoon was educational even though I only watched, since you want to butcher and clean an animal as soon as you can. When we ate the first meal made out of Washington we included him in the prayer before the meal, mentioned our favourite stories about him and that we were glad he lived and glad he would fuel our lives and that he had made way for another creature to live the good life he did.
My opinion? Steak is delicious.
Chief and Teriyaki probably remembered Washington, but I highly doubt any of that knowledge passed on to his successor Glaucon even though there was overlap in their lives. Washington would be dead by now anyway- I was maybe twelve at the time we ate him- and what remains is the memories I have, and the shared family he has from nephews and so on being raised in the same way now. This is what I mean by patterns of thought- my great grandfather is dead, but since I’ve read his journal and heard stories about him from my father and grandmother, not every piece of him is gone. Odd phrases, family recipes, habits of thought, weird but cherished stories, these float alongside DNA down the generations. If every cow died tomorrow, humans would remember them for at least a thousand years. If every human died tomorrow, cows wouldn’t remember us beyond a generation.
I’ll read whatever you write in response to this, but I don’t think there’s much more to be gained from this conversation. You’ve moved from asking for perspectives to attempting to persuade via abstract means to attempting to persuade via emotional means, and while I don’t begrudge you for that, I do think it’s a sign neither of us are going to make any more headway.
How do you justify when you don’t eat ‘cruelty free’ meat? Those animals are suffering during their.
My other question would be, I don’t understand why you don’t care over the logic of the first paragraph to cows?
I do get what you’re saying with creating beings that do have a decent life.
Assuming your second sentence was supposed to end with ”...suffering during their lives” my response is I mostly do so when I’m not the one picking the source (company functions, family reunions, etc) or on occasions where I’m traveling and nothing else presents itself. (I am consequentalist enough that ~1% of my food budget going to those sorts of operations doesn’t bother me, since the goal of reducing their income from me is being achieved, though I’ll also grant that this is the largest inconsistency in my own ethics on this subject I see.)
Assuming your third sentence was supposed to read ”...you don’t carry over the...” my response is that cows can neither assassinate me in my bed nor understand treaties of nonaggression, nor do they share human patterns of thought or genes except at a distant remove.
Are you open to being persuaded to eat ‘cruelty free’ meat? Is there some fact or framing which might change your mind?
I don’t kill humans for the same reason you do though. I could possibly be persuaded, but I’m not exactly sure what it would be. I think it would be something of the sort following: You would either have to convince me killing sleeping (I’m just gonna use sleep as equivalent to cruelty free for convenience sake) humans is ethically fine OR that cows are different in some way other than logistically speaking (I wouldn’t say that the fact that cows can’t kill you is morals, that’s more practicality; so something other than the two (redemption killing or treatise) things you just named). Or to convince me that cows should not have the right to live on their lives all the way through. Something along these lines, and if you’re going to go with how you were talking about different patterns of thought you’d have to be more specific.
You would possibly have to attack my underlying ethics since I don’t kill sleeping humans for other reasons as we’ve discuss and that would be harder to change my opinion on.
If this is unclear, just ask me to rephrase. I’ll just try to rephrase it below.
1) Killing humans without cruelty is ethical (I don’t know you want to convince me of this one) 2) Humans and cows are different in some way other than treatise or redemption killing so that cows don’t have the right to life 3) Or to change my view of “While a world where one’s life and death is one’s own choice is a good world in my view, I can’t find myself getting axiomatically worked up over others acting on my behalf. I’m willing to make acausial deals- for example,”
Arguments that will not convince me is that “cows are not out kind, they are too far away from us, they are not human.”
I also reread your post above.
I agree with this. I think that beings can be created. My problem is ending already existing ones once they are created.
And like you continued on. I agree that their existence doesn’t have to be perfect. We should just make it not horrible. Again, my problem is the force ending.
I’m gonna add in one more thing. I think this is an emotional appeal, but I think its true regardless. Do you think that your opinion would change if you interacted with other animals like cows on a more personal level more often (or possibly at all) and actually saw them as individuals rather than an idealized “cow.” And if you have interacted a lots with cows on a personal level (such as farming), I’d like to hear your opinion as well.
Content warning to follow for response to emotional appeal and for unrepentant animal execution.
I grew up on a small dairy farm (~40 head) that kept a handful of beef cattle. I spent more time with the dairy herd- they’re a lot safer and the need to milk them every day means they get more of a farmhand’s attention- but I’ve got some pretty fond memories of moving the beef cows from pasture to pasture. We named one Chief, who always pushed to be first in line, and another Teriyaki because of an odd auburn patch on his flank. When I was studying a part for a play, I used to balance on part of their fence while reciting my lines and Washington would usually mill around near me. He’d do that for anyone who was saying literally anything as long as your voice hadn’t dropped, and sometimes when cleaning the stalls I’d make up stories to tell him. I never figured out why, but Washington’s manure was always fairly compact and dry for a cow, which made mucking his stall much easier.
Washington was also the first animal larger than a mouse I ever killed. It’s easier than you’d think. He didn’t even realize something was wrong about being lead into a back room he’d never been in before, he just followed Chief in and then stood around placidly when we blocked the exit Chief had just left through. We got everything set up (a ton of animal can be dangerous if it just falls uncontrolled) and the adults offered to let me do it. Killing did not feel like some special magic or momentous occasion. The rest of the afternoon was educational even though I only watched, since you want to butcher and clean an animal as soon as you can. When we ate the first meal made out of Washington we included him in the prayer before the meal, mentioned our favourite stories about him and that we were glad he lived and glad he would fuel our lives and that he had made way for another creature to live the good life he did.
My opinion? Steak is delicious.
Chief and Teriyaki probably remembered Washington, but I highly doubt any of that knowledge passed on to his successor Glaucon even though there was overlap in their lives. Washington would be dead by now anyway- I was maybe twelve at the time we ate him- and what remains is the memories I have, and the shared family he has from nephews and so on being raised in the same way now. This is what I mean by patterns of thought- my great grandfather is dead, but since I’ve read his journal and heard stories about him from my father and grandmother, not every piece of him is gone. Odd phrases, family recipes, habits of thought, weird but cherished stories, these float alongside DNA down the generations. If every cow died tomorrow, humans would remember them for at least a thousand years. If every human died tomorrow, cows wouldn’t remember us beyond a generation.
I’ll read whatever you write in response to this, but I don’t think there’s much more to be gained from this conversation. You’ve moved from asking for perspectives to attempting to persuade via abstract means to attempting to persuade via emotional means, and while I don’t begrudge you for that, I do think it’s a sign neither of us are going to make any more headway.
Nice talking to you, and have a good day :)
A great perspective from personal experience. Well recounted.