I am not convinced that a materialist determinist like Sam Harris or Democritus would be convinced. The fact that I draw a line around some part of physics and call it “me” doesn’t mean I control what goes on in that boundary, after all.
I guess this is my sticking point. After all, a billiard ball is a necessary link in the causal chain as well, and no less a computational nexus (albeit a much simpler one), but we don’t think that we should attribute to the ball whatever sort of authorship we wish to talk about with reference to free will. If we end up showing that we have a property (e.g. ‘being a necessary causal link’) that’s true of everything then we’ve just changed the topic and we’re no longer talking about free will. Whatever we mean by free will, we certainly mean something human beings (allegedly) have, and rocks don’t. So this does just strike me as straightforward anti-free-will determinism.
But the reason that determinism worries freshman philosophy students and novice LWers is that it seems to imply fatalism...
That may be right, and it may just be worth pointing out that determinism doesn’t imply fatalism. But in that light the intuitive grounds for fatalism seem much more interesting than the intuitive grounds for the belief in free will. I’m not entirely sure we’re naturally apt to think we have free will in any case: I don’t think anyone before the Romans ever mentioned it, and it’s not like people back then didn’t have worked out (if false) metaphysical and ethical theories.
I don’t think anyone before the Romans ever mentioned it, and it’s not like people back then didn’t have worked out (if false) metaphysical and ethical theories.
Actually, the ancient Egyptian concept of Maat seems to include free will in some sense, as a “responsibility to choose Good”, according to this excerpt. But yeah, it was not separate from ethics.
That’s really interesting, thanks for posting it. It’s an obscure sort of notion, but I agree it’s got some family resemblance to idea of free will. I guess I was thinking mostly of the absence of the idea of free will from Greek philosophy.
I guess I was thinking mostly of the absence of the idea of free will from Greek philosophy.
I took a course on ancient and medieval ethics as an undergraduate. We spent a lot of time on free will, talking about Stoic versus Epicurean views, and then how they show up in Cicero and in Thomas. My impression (as a non-expert) is that Aristotle doesn’t have a term that equates to “free will”, but that other Greek writers very much do.
You’re right, of course, that many of those philosophers wrote in Greek. I suppose I was thinking of them as hellenistic or latin, and thinking of Greek philosophers as Plato, Aristotle, and their contemporaries. But I was speaking imprecisely.
we don’t think that we should attribute to the ball whatever sort of authorship we wish to talk about with reference to free will.
That is because the billiard ball doesn’t have sufficient inner complexity and processes. I think the necessary complexity is the computational ability to a) model parts of the future world state and b) base behavior on that and c) model the modelling of this. The problem arises when your model of your model goes from iniuition (sensation of free will) to symbolic form which allows detection of the logical inconsistencies at some higher modelling level.
Actually little is needed to ascribe agency to ‘balls’. Just look at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZBKer6PMtM and tell me what inner processes you infer about the ‘ball’ due to its complex interactions.
That is because the billiard ball doesn’t have sufficient inner complexity and processes.
I agree that your (a)-(c) are necessary (and maybe sufficient) conditions on having free will.
The problem arises when your model of your model goes from iniuition (sensation of free will) to symbolic form which allows detection of the logical inconsistencies at some higher modelling level.
What do you mean by this?
sensation of free will
To my knowledge, I’ve never had this sensation, so I don’t know what to say about it. So far as I understand what is meant by free will, it’s not the sort of thing of which one could have a sensation.
To my knowledge, I’ve never had this sensation, so I don’t know what to say about it. So far as I understand what is meant by free will, it’s not the sort of thing of which one could have a sensation.
Further to the other subthread, I suppose what most people mean when they talk about the sensation of free will is imagining multiple possible worlds and feeling control over which one will become actual before it does. Do you not have this?
I suppose what most people mean when they talk about the sensation of free will is imagining multiple possible worlds and feeling control over which one will become actual before it does. Do you not have this?
I wouldn’t call that a sensation or a feeling, but yes. I do think I act freely, and I can recall times when I’ve acted freely. If I don’t have free will, then I’m wrong about all that.
Thanks, that’s very helpful.
I guess this is my sticking point. After all, a billiard ball is a necessary link in the causal chain as well, and no less a computational nexus (albeit a much simpler one), but we don’t think that we should attribute to the ball whatever sort of authorship we wish to talk about with reference to free will. If we end up showing that we have a property (e.g. ‘being a necessary causal link’) that’s true of everything then we’ve just changed the topic and we’re no longer talking about free will. Whatever we mean by free will, we certainly mean something human beings (allegedly) have, and rocks don’t. So this does just strike me as straightforward anti-free-will determinism.
That may be right, and it may just be worth pointing out that determinism doesn’t imply fatalism. But in that light the intuitive grounds for fatalism seem much more interesting than the intuitive grounds for the belief in free will. I’m not entirely sure we’re naturally apt to think we have free will in any case: I don’t think anyone before the Romans ever mentioned it, and it’s not like people back then didn’t have worked out (if false) metaphysical and ethical theories.
Actually, the ancient Egyptian concept of Maat seems to include free will in some sense, as a “responsibility to choose Good”, according to this excerpt. But yeah, it was not separate from ethics.
That’s really interesting, thanks for posting it. It’s an obscure sort of notion, but I agree it’s got some family resemblance to idea of free will. I guess I was thinking mostly of the absence of the idea of free will from Greek philosophy.
I took a course on ancient and medieval ethics as an undergraduate. We spent a lot of time on free will, talking about Stoic versus Epicurean views, and then how they show up in Cicero and in Thomas. My impression (as a non-expert) is that Aristotle doesn’t have a term that equates to “free will”, but that other Greek writers very much do.
You’re right, of course, that many of those philosophers wrote in Greek. I suppose I was thinking of them as hellenistic or latin, and thinking of Greek philosophers as Plato, Aristotle, and their contemporaries. But I was speaking imprecisely.
That is because the billiard ball doesn’t have sufficient inner complexity and processes. I think the necessary complexity is the computational ability to a) model parts of the future world state and b) base behavior on that and c) model the modelling of this. The problem arises when your model of your model goes from iniuition (sensation of free will) to symbolic form which allows detection of the logical inconsistencies at some higher modelling level.
Actually little is needed to ascribe agency to ‘balls’. Just look at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZBKer6PMtM and tell me what inner processes you infer about the ‘ball’ due to its complex interactions.
I agree that your (a)-(c) are necessary (and maybe sufficient) conditions on having free will.
What do you mean by this?
To my knowledge, I’ve never had this sensation, so I don’t know what to say about it. So far as I understand what is meant by free will, it’s not the sort of thing of which one could have a sensation.
Further to the other subthread, I suppose what most people mean when they talk about the sensation of free will is imagining multiple possible worlds and feeling control over which one will become actual before it does. Do you not have this?
I wouldn’t call that a sensation or a feeling, but yes. I do think I act freely, and I can recall times when I’ve acted freely. If I don’t have free will, then I’m wrong about all that.