Right, the whole things seems like a rather strange confusion to me, since the is-ought gap is a problem certain kinds of anti-realists face but is not a problem for most realists since for them morals facts are still facts. So it seems to me, not being familiar with Harris, an alternative interpretation is that Harris is a moral realist and so believes there is no is-ought gap and thus this business with dialectical v. logical explanations is superfluous.
It’s true that a moral realist could always bridge the is–ought gap by the simple expedient of converting every statement of the form “I ought to X” to “Objectively and factually, X is what I ought to do”.
But that is not enough for Sam’s purposes. It’s not enough for him that every moral claim is or is not the case. It’s not enough that moral claims are matters of fact. He wants them to be matters of scientific fact.
On my reading, what he means by that is the following: When you are pursuing a moral inquiry, you are already a moral agent who finds certain objective and scientifically determinable facts to be motivating (inducing of pursuit or avoidance). You are, as Eliezer puts it, “created already in motion”. Your inquiry, therefore, is properly restricted just to determining which scientific “is” statements are true and which are false. In that sense, moral inquiry reduces entirely to matters of scientific fact. This is the dialectical-argumentation point of view.
But his interlocutors misread him to be saying that every scientifically competent agent should find the same objective facts to be motivating. In other words, all such agents should [edit: I should have said “would”] feel compelled to act according to the same moral axioms. This is what “bridging the is–ought gap” would mean if you confined yourself to the logical-argumentation framework. But it’s not what Sam is claiming to have shown.
When you are pursuing a moral inquiry, you are already a moral agent who finds certain objective and scientifically determinable facts to be motivating (inducing of pursuit or avoidance). You are, as Eliezer puts it, “created already in motion”. Your inquiry, therefore, is properly restricted just to determining which scientific “is” statements are true and which are false. In that sense, moral inquiry reduces entirely to matters of scientific fact. This is the dialectical-argumentation point of view.
Note that while this account is internally consistent (at least, to a first approximation), it lacks a critical component of Sam Harris’s (apparent) view—namely, that all humans (minus a handful of sociopaths, perhaps) find the same “objective and scientifically determinable facts” to be “motivating”.
Without that assumption, the possibility is left open that while each individual human does, indeed, already find certain objective facts to be morally motivating, those facts differ between groups, between types of people, between individuals, etc. It would then be impossible to make any meaningful claims about what “we ought to do”, for any interesting value of “we”.
So, we might ask, what is the problem with that? Suppose we add this additional claim to the quoted account. Isn’t it still coherent? Well, sure, as far as it goes, but: suppose that I agree with Sam Harris that ~all humans find the same set of objective facts to be morally motivating. But then it turns out that we disagree on just which facts those are! How do we resolve this disagreement? We can hardly appeal to objective facts, to do so…
suppose that I agree with Sam Harris that ~all humans find the same set of objective facts to be morally motivating. But then it turns out that we disagree on just which facts those are! How do we resolve this disagreement? We can hardly appeal to objective facts, to do so…
I don’t follow. Sam would say (and I would agree) that which facts which humans find motivating (in the limit of ideal reflection, etc.) is an empirical question. With regard to each human, it is a scientific question about that human’s motivational architecture.
Indeed—but that “in the limit of ideal reflection” clause is the crux of the matter!
Yes, in the limit of ideal reflection, which facts I find motivating is an empirical question. But how long does it take to reach the limit of ideal reflection? What does it take, to get there? (Is it even a well-defined concept?! Well, let’s assume it is… though that’s one heck of an assumption!)
In fact, isn’t one way to reach that “limit of ideal reflection” simply (hah!) to… debate morality? Endless arguments about moral concepts—what is that? Steps on the path to the limit of ideal reflection, mightn’t we say? (And god forbid you and I disagree on just what constitutes “the limit of ideal reflection”, and how to define it, and how to approach it, and how to recognize it! How do we resolve that? What if I say that I’ve reflected quite a bit, now, and I don’t see what else there is to reflect, and I’ve come to my conclusions; what have you to say to me? Can you respond “no, you have more reflecting to do”? Is that an empirical claim?)
What is clear enough is that the answer to these questions—“empirical” though they may be, in a certain technical sense—is a very different sort of fact, than the “scientific” facts that Sam Harris wants to claim are all that we need, to know the answers to moral questions. We can’t really go out and just look. We can’t use any sort of agreed-upon measurement procedure. We don’t really even agree on how to recognize such facts, if and when we come into possession of them!
So labeling this just another “scientific question” seems unwarranted.
Right, the whole things seems like a rather strange confusion to me, since the is-ought gap is a problem certain kinds of anti-realists face but is not a problem for most realists since for them morals facts are still facts. So it seems to me, not being familiar with Harris, an alternative interpretation is that Harris is a moral realist and so believes there is no is-ought gap and thus this business with dialectical v. logical explanations is superfluous.
It’s true that a moral realist could always bridge the is–ought gap by the simple expedient of converting every statement of the form “I ought to X” to “Objectively and factually, X is what I ought to do”.
But that is not enough for Sam’s purposes. It’s not enough for him that every moral claim is or is not the case. It’s not enough that moral claims are matters of fact. He wants them to be matters of scientific fact.
On my reading, what he means by that is the following: When you are pursuing a moral inquiry, you are already a moral agent who finds certain objective and scientifically determinable facts to be motivating (inducing of pursuit or avoidance). You are, as Eliezer puts it, “created already in motion”. Your inquiry, therefore, is properly restricted just to determining which scientific “is” statements are true and which are false. In that sense, moral inquiry reduces entirely to matters of scientific fact. This is the dialectical-argumentation point of view.
But his interlocutors misread him to be saying that every scientifically competent agent should find the same objective facts to be motivating. In other words, all such agents should [edit: I should have said “would”] feel compelled to act according to the same moral axioms. This is what “bridging the is–ought gap” would mean if you confined yourself to the logical-argumentation framework. But it’s not what Sam is claiming to have shown.
Note that while this account is internally consistent (at least, to a first approximation), it lacks a critical component of Sam Harris’s (apparent) view—namely, that all humans (minus a handful of sociopaths, perhaps) find the same “objective and scientifically determinable facts” to be “motivating”.
Without that assumption, the possibility is left open that while each individual human does, indeed, already find certain objective facts to be morally motivating, those facts differ between groups, between types of people, between individuals, etc. It would then be impossible to make any meaningful claims about what “we ought to do”, for any interesting value of “we”.
So, we might ask, what is the problem with that? Suppose we add this additional claim to the quoted account. Isn’t it still coherent? Well, sure, as far as it goes, but: suppose that I agree with Sam Harris that ~all humans find the same set of objective facts to be morally motivating. But then it turns out that we disagree on just which facts those are! How do we resolve this disagreement? We can hardly appeal to objective facts, to do so…
And we’re right back at square one.
I don’t follow. Sam would say (and I would agree) that which facts which humans find motivating (in the limit of ideal reflection, etc.) is an empirical question. With regard to each human, it is a scientific question about that human’s motivational architecture.
Indeed—but that “in the limit of ideal reflection” clause is the crux of the matter!
Yes, in the limit of ideal reflection, which facts I find motivating is an empirical question. But how long does it take to reach the limit of ideal reflection? What does it take, to get there? (Is it even a well-defined concept?! Well, let’s assume it is… though that’s one heck of an assumption!)
In fact, isn’t one way to reach that “limit of ideal reflection” simply (hah!) to… debate morality? Endless arguments about moral concepts—what is that? Steps on the path to the limit of ideal reflection, mightn’t we say? (And god forbid you and I disagree on just what constitutes “the limit of ideal reflection”, and how to define it, and how to approach it, and how to recognize it! How do we resolve that? What if I say that I’ve reflected quite a bit, now, and I don’t see what else there is to reflect, and I’ve come to my conclusions; what have you to say to me? Can you respond “no, you have more reflecting to do”? Is that an empirical claim?)
What is clear enough is that the answer to these questions—“empirical” though they may be, in a certain technical sense—is a very different sort of fact, than the “scientific” facts that Sam Harris wants to claim are all that we need, to know the answers to moral questions. We can’t really go out and just look. We can’t use any sort of agreed-upon measurement procedure. We don’t really even agree on how to recognize such facts, if and when we come into possession of them!
So labeling this just another “scientific question” seems unwarranted.