A friend and I are investigating why the cryonics movement hasn’t been more successful and looking at what can be done to improve the situation. We have some ideas and have begun reaching out to people in the cryonics community. If you are interested in helping, message me. Right now it is mostly researching things about the existing cryonics organizations and coming up with ideas. In the future, there could be lots of other ways to contribute.
To me, success would be the number of patient’s signed up for cryonics, greater cultural acceptance and recognition of cryonics as a reasonable patient choice from the medical field and government.
success would be the number of patient’s signed up for cryonics, greater cultural acceptance and recognition of cryonics as a reasonable patient choice from the medical field and government
It’s interesting that none of these criteria actually have anything to do with the promise of cryonics.
The reality today is that we are probably still a long way off from being able to revive someone. To me, the promise of cryonics has a lot to do with being a fallback plan for life extension technologies. Consequently, it is important that it be available and used today. Thus my definition of success. That said, if the cryonics movement were more successful in the way I have described, a lot more effort and money would go into cryonics research and bring us much closer to being able to revive someone. It would also mean that currently cryopreserved patients would be more likely to be cared for long enough to be revived.
Signing up for cryonics is ridiculously complicated. There should be a one-click group life insurance policy for funding it, and a notary that comes to you to complete the paperwork. It should take less than 10 minutes to get the ball rolling, and less than an hour time commitment total (albeit in chunks at a time as the paperwork is processed), and a single auto-billed monthly payment. Upgrading to a cryonics trust should be of similarly little complexity.
Also there should be late night basic cable channels showing cryonics infomercials. I’m quite serious about this.
It’s not the most useful thing I could be doing with my skillset, connections, and limited time. But if someone were to take up the torch (like the OP), I’d do what I can to support it.
In case it wasn’t clear, my “it should...” statements were my own evaluations of how simplified the process could become with some process design optimization, not baseless “I want a pony!” whining. I am signed up for cryonics with Alcor and am familiar with the legal hurdles they require and why. I think those requirements can be met with a much more streamlined process, however it would require scaling up faster than word of mouth (hence, infomercial territory).
“there should be late night basic cable channels showing cryonics infomercials” is the sort of thing that sounds like a joke. Presumably they want to make it clear that that was not a joke.
What I’m about to say is within the context of seeing you be one of the most frequent commenters on this site.
Otherwise it sounds like entitled whining.
That is really unfriendly to say; honestly the word I want to use is “nasty” but that is probably hyperbolic/hypocritical. I’m not sure if you realize this but a culture of macho challenging like this discourages people from participating. I think you and several other commenters who determine the baseline culture of this site should try to be more friendly. I have seen you in particular use a smiley before so that’s good and you’re probably a friendly person along many dimensions. But I want to emphasize how intimidated newcomers or people who are otherwise uncomfortable with what is probably interpreted-by-you as joshing-around with LW-friends. To you it may feel like you are pursuing less-wrongness, but to people who are more neurotic and/or more unfamiliar with this forum it can come across as feeling hounded, even if vicariously.
I do not want to pick on people I don’t know but there are other frequent commenters who could use this message too.
Well, first of all I don’t think I determine the baseline culture of the site. I’m more of an outlier here and I was just a lurker when the site was in its heyday.
Second, as opposed to some, I don’t want just more people. I want more interesting, smart, competent people and yes, this implies that I prefer a certain class of people to not be here—preferably by not showing up here at all. Relative rarity of idiots is a BIG advantage of LW—if you want broad participation Reddit, etc. are there for you.
Third, “hounded”? This is the ’net and though a particular technology has been desired by many, it hasn’t been invented yet. Close the browser or switch to a different tab and hey! you’re free and safe.
I agree that signing up for cryonics is far too complicated and this is one of the things that needs to be addressed. My friend and I have a number of ideas how that might be done.
While I’m not sure about late night basic cable infomercials, existing cryonics organizations certainly don’t carry out much if any advertising. There are a number of good reasons that they are not advertising. Those can and should be addressed by any future cryonics organization.
The cryonics movement is not successful because there are ZERO instances of reviving a corpsicle. What other measure of success would you want to pursue?
Responding with a comment because a down-vote is not available...
This is a tired strawman argument that seems to rear its head in every discussion of cryonics. Cryonics patients are being stored for future revival, perhaps in the distant future. Successful revival is dependent on the technology existing in the future to reverse vitrification damage. It’s of no relevance whether that technology exists today, just that it is within the realm of physical possibility to create such technology and that sufficient funds are provided up front for perpetual storage, since we don’t know how long it will be until that technology exists. (But we know with near certainty that such technology is possible, by a number of different routes).
This is explained in the FAQs of all cryonics organizations I’m aware of.
Downvote accepted, I do miss that feedback mechanism (when it worked, not when it got abused). My comment was perhaps over-brief.
I stand by my assertion that any definition of “successful” for cryonics must include actual revivals or measurable progress toward such. Nobody would ever wonder why chemotherapy isn’t more successful because many cancer patients choose not to try it.
It now occurs to me that OP may have intentionally distinguished “cryonics movement” from “cryonics” in terms of success metrics, in which case I’m still concerned, but have expressed the wrong dimension of concern.
Yes, I believe we have wandered off he OP’s original topic.
But for what it’s with I think you are comparing apples to oranges. All cryonics cases that have not experienced early failure due to organizational or engineering flaws are still ongoIng. Only about 2% have failed. The other 98% remains to be seen. It is absolutely the case that modern cryonics organizations like Alcor have made tremendous progress in increasing the probably of success, mostly through organizational and funding changes, but also improvements to the suspension process as well.
If I may take a stab at this: it’s probably a combination of
1) Costs a lot
2) Benefit isn’t expected for many decades
3) No guarantee that it would work
Anyone taking a heurisitc approach to reasoning about whether to sign up for cryonics rather than a probabilistic one ( which isn’t irrational if you have no way to estimate the probabilities involved available to you ) could therefore easily evaluate it as not worth doing.
A friend and I are investigating why the cryonics movement hasn’t been more successful and looking at what can be done to improve the situation. We have some ideas and have begun reaching out to people in the cryonics community. If you are interested in helping, message me. Right now it is mostly researching things about the existing cryonics organizations and coming up with ideas. In the future, there could be lots of other ways to contribute.
What does “successful” look like here? Number of patients in cryonic storage? Successfully revived tissues or experimental animals?
To me, success would be the number of patient’s signed up for cryonics, greater cultural acceptance and recognition of cryonics as a reasonable patient choice from the medical field and government.
Maybe starting the Church of the Frost Giants and declaring cryonic suspension to be a religiously mandated funerary practice would work to that end.
I think actually reviving some ice mice might be a bigger step, though.
It’s interesting that none of these criteria actually have anything to do with the promise of cryonics.
The reality today is that we are probably still a long way off from being able to revive someone. To me, the promise of cryonics has a lot to do with being a fallback plan for life extension technologies. Consequently, it is important that it be available and used today. Thus my definition of success. That said, if the cryonics movement were more successful in the way I have described, a lot more effort and money would go into cryonics research and bring us much closer to being able to revive someone. It would also mean that currently cryopreserved patients would be more likely to be cared for long enough to be revived.
Signing up for cryonics is ridiculously complicated. There should be a one-click group life insurance policy for funding it, and a notary that comes to you to complete the paperwork. It should take less than 10 minutes to get the ball rolling, and less than an hour time commitment total (albeit in chunks at a time as the paperwork is processed), and a single auto-billed monthly payment. Upgrading to a cryonics trust should be of similarly little complexity.
Also there should be late night basic cable channels showing cryonics infomercials. I’m quite serious about this.
Are you? Well then, go make it happen.
Otherwise it sounds like entitled whining.
It’s not the most useful thing I could be doing with my skillset, connections, and limited time. But if someone were to take up the torch (like the OP), I’d do what I can to support it.
In case it wasn’t clear, my “it should...” statements were my own evaluations of how simplified the process could become with some process design optimization, not baseless “I want a pony!” whining. I am signed up for cryonics with Alcor and am familiar with the legal hurdles they require and why. I think those requirements can be met with a much more streamlined process, however it would require scaling up faster than word of mouth (hence, infomercial territory).
So when you say you’re quite serious about it, what exactly do you mean?
“there should be late night basic cable channels showing cryonics infomercials” is the sort of thing that sounds like a joke. Presumably they want to make it clear that that was not a joke.
Maybe they said it ironically :-P
Philh is correct.
What I’m about to say is within the context of seeing you be one of the most frequent commenters on this site.
That is really unfriendly to say; honestly the word I want to use is “nasty” but that is probably hyperbolic/hypocritical. I’m not sure if you realize this but a culture of macho challenging like this discourages people from participating. I think you and several other commenters who determine the baseline culture of this site should try to be more friendly. I have seen you in particular use a smiley before so that’s good and you’re probably a friendly person along many dimensions. But I want to emphasize how intimidated newcomers or people who are otherwise uncomfortable with what is probably interpreted-by-you as joshing-around with LW-friends. To you it may feel like you are pursuing less-wrongness, but to people who are more neurotic and/or more unfamiliar with this forum it can come across as feeling hounded, even if vicariously.
I do not want to pick on people I don’t know but there are other frequent commenters who could use this message too.
Well, first of all I don’t think I determine the baseline culture of the site. I’m more of an outlier here and I was just a lurker when the site was in its heyday.
Second, as opposed to some, I don’t want just more people. I want more interesting, smart, competent people and yes, this implies that I prefer a certain class of people to not be here—preferably by not showing up here at all. Relative rarity of idiots is a BIG advantage of LW—if you want broad participation Reddit, etc. are there for you.
Third, “hounded”? This is the ’net and though a particular technology has been desired by many, it hasn’t been invented yet. Close the browser or switch to a different tab and hey! you’re free and safe.
I agree that signing up for cryonics is far too complicated and this is one of the things that needs to be addressed. My friend and I have a number of ideas how that might be done.
While I’m not sure about late night basic cable infomercials, existing cryonics organizations certainly don’t carry out much if any advertising. There are a number of good reasons that they are not advertising. Those can and should be addressed by any future cryonics organization.
The cryonics movement is not successful because there are ZERO instances of reviving a corpsicle. What other measure of success would you want to pursue?
Responding with a comment because a down-vote is not available...
This is a tired strawman argument that seems to rear its head in every discussion of cryonics. Cryonics patients are being stored for future revival, perhaps in the distant future. Successful revival is dependent on the technology existing in the future to reverse vitrification damage. It’s of no relevance whether that technology exists today, just that it is within the realm of physical possibility to create such technology and that sufficient funds are provided up front for perpetual storage, since we don’t know how long it will be until that technology exists. (But we know with near certainty that such technology is possible, by a number of different routes).
This is explained in the FAQs of all cryonics organizations I’m aware of.
Downvote accepted, I do miss that feedback mechanism (when it worked, not when it got abused). My comment was perhaps over-brief.
I stand by my assertion that any definition of “successful” for cryonics must include actual revivals or measurable progress toward such. Nobody would ever wonder why chemotherapy isn’t more successful because many cancer patients choose not to try it.
It now occurs to me that OP may have intentionally distinguished “cryonics movement” from “cryonics” in terms of success metrics, in which case I’m still concerned, but have expressed the wrong dimension of concern.
Yes, I believe we have wandered off he OP’s original topic.
But for what it’s with I think you are comparing apples to oranges. All cryonics cases that have not experienced early failure due to organizational or engineering flaws are still ongoIng. Only about 2% have failed. The other 98% remains to be seen. It is absolutely the case that modern cryonics organizations like Alcor have made tremendous progress in increasing the probably of success, mostly through organizational and funding changes, but also improvements to the suspension process as well.
If I may take a stab at this: it’s probably a combination of 1) Costs a lot 2) Benefit isn’t expected for many decades 3) No guarantee that it would work
Anyone taking a heurisitc approach to reasoning about whether to sign up for cryonics rather than a probabilistic one ( which isn’t irrational if you have no way to estimate the probabilities involved available to you ) could therefore easily evaluate it as not worth doing.
The religious might also see it as an attempt to cheat God, which rarely ends well in the mythology.