I think that there is one implicit assumption of yours to examine closer, and that is that the State will be especially vengeful or overly punitive. Most of the punishments that will befall the various rioters are described in advance by law.
The State in America is a lot more thoughtful and powerful than to make martyrs so casually.
Those whom the State labels Insurrectionist are by others labeled Patriot.
From a certain point of view this (false) label is the Foreign State.
Trump will likely be jailed for life. Without Trump the alternative reality will collapse and subside. Those who believed in it will stay quiet for two years and then pretend nothing of 2016-2020 ever happened.
Healing won’t happen through conversation, for the most part, because people aren’t that good at admitting they were wrong. Primarily this is done just by dropping the subject.
The State will pave over this entire thing so deftly it will be as if it never happened. That is the total power of the State, because the State operates through a much longer timeframe than individual humans.
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To be clearer, I agree with the spirit of your words urging healing, but I believe that the reality is that none of us on the Internet have the neighbors that matter. I certainly don’t. Even the Trump supporting contacts we do have are likely somewhat atypical!
if you renege on the social contract that has logical consequences
I’m not sure what you think I’m getting at here, but I was talking about being friendly and opening a dialogue with the people around us with different political alignments. I’d hardly call being a friendly and compassionate neighbor “reneging on the social contract”!
If you think there won’t be bipartisan support for whatever revenge comes...
Of course there will be support! We need to urge restraint to reduce the chances of something terrible happening to these human beings!
Trump didn’t make this dissent, how did he get elected in the first place if the will wasn’t there?
Agreed. That’s why, even in the event that the State outright disappears him off the face of the planet, we still have work to do.
Nothing has been altered about the underlying issues so why would their surface presentation get any better?
They won’t if we don’t have the will or the courage to do anything about it. Reach across that divide!
explain to me why I should care about anyone’s feelings and esteem
Because doing so aligns with a principle of avoiding unnecessary harm, for a start. Also because it facilitates better communication when you are making an effort to avoid creating more animosity.
There is literally nothing I could ever say to you that will cause you tangible harm.
You, who have read so much history, believe that words cannot cause harm? That’s an interesting conclusion.
Ignoring that animosity is a fundamental aspect of this particular conversation
I don’t think existing animosity should be ignored. It’s very important to acknowledge all the conditions when participating in any conversation, if at all possible. Rather, we should work to avoid creating new animosity, partly for the sake of communication and partly to avoid being even partly responsible for the harms that come to others as a result of our words. We likely won’t be successful all the time, because wise speech is hard to do. But, like with everything else, the surest way to fail is to not try at all.
Moreover, I find that the exchange of ideas meets less friction when I try to not antagonize others. That’s the goal of conversation, is it not?
Without Trump the alternative reality will collapse and subside.
I hope you’re right about that! And I hope the State will treat its citizens better than others it labels Terrorist. I’ve heard Guantanamo isn’t a great place to be. That aside, Trump only used and amplified existing fears and divisions, he didn’t have to invent any of it. Those long term issues are what we need to work on.
Healing won’t happen through conversation… the State operates through a much longer timeframe than individual humans.
We can operate on longer time frames by getting better at conversation, at admitting when we’re wrong, and by acting as though our actions can have a small but lasting cumulative effect. If we don’t even try, then you’re definitely right. If we do try, there’s a chance we could do better.
The State will pave over this entire thing so deftly it will be as if it never happened.
Here, I think we fully agree. I can’t wait to see how history books treat this in a decade or two!
Solid work.
I think that there is one implicit assumption of yours to examine closer, and that is that the State will be especially vengeful or overly punitive. Most of the punishments that will befall the various rioters are described in advance by law.
The State in America is a lot more thoughtful and powerful than to make martyrs so casually.
From a certain point of view this (false) label is the Foreign State.
Trump will likely be jailed for life. Without Trump the alternative reality will collapse and subside. Those who believed in it will stay quiet for two years and then pretend nothing of 2016-2020 ever happened.
Healing won’t happen through conversation, for the most part, because people aren’t that good at admitting they were wrong. Primarily this is done just by dropping the subject.
The State will pave over this entire thing so deftly it will be as if it never happened. That is the total power of the State, because the State operates through a much longer timeframe than individual humans.
---
To be clearer, I agree with the spirit of your words urging healing, but I believe that the reality is that none of us on the Internet have the neighbors that matter. I certainly don’t. Even the Trump supporting contacts we do have are likely somewhat atypical!
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I’m not sure what you think I’m getting at here, but I was talking about being friendly and opening a dialogue with the people around us with different political alignments. I’d hardly call being a friendly and compassionate neighbor “reneging on the social contract”!
Of course there will be support! We need to urge restraint to reduce the chances of something terrible happening to these human beings!
Agreed. That’s why, even in the event that the State outright disappears him off the face of the planet, we still have work to do.
They won’t if we don’t have the will or the courage to do anything about it. Reach across that divide!
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I could make a similar claim, but this is a public forum last I checked.
I’ll thank you to keep your opinions to yourself regarding my other interlocutors.
Because doing so aligns with a principle of avoiding unnecessary harm, for a start. Also because it facilitates better communication when you are making an effort to avoid creating more animosity.
-
You, who have read so much history, believe that words cannot cause harm? That’s an interesting conclusion.
I don’t think existing animosity should be ignored. It’s very important to acknowledge all the conditions when participating in any conversation, if at all possible. Rather, we should work to avoid creating new animosity, partly for the sake of communication and partly to avoid being even partly responsible for the harms that come to others as a result of our words. We likely won’t be successful all the time, because wise speech is hard to do. But, like with everything else, the surest way to fail is to not try at all.
Moreover, I find that the exchange of ideas meets less friction when I try to not antagonize others. That’s the goal of conversation, is it not?
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You’re right; I hit reply from the notification without checking. My bad.
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I hope you’re right about that! And I hope the State will treat its citizens better than others it labels Terrorist. I’ve heard Guantanamo isn’t a great place to be. That aside, Trump only used and amplified existing fears and divisions, he didn’t have to invent any of it. Those long term issues are what we need to work on.
We can operate on longer time frames by getting better at conversation, at admitting when we’re wrong, and by acting as though our actions can have a small but lasting cumulative effect. If we don’t even try, then you’re definitely right. If we do try, there’s a chance we could do better.
Here, I think we fully agree. I can’t wait to see how history books treat this in a decade or two!