I don’t see how you could possibly be observing that trend. The earliest active comment threads on Less Wrong were voting / karma debates. Going meta is not only what we love best, it’s what we’re best at, and that’s always been so.
Yes, but the real question is why we love going meta. What is it about going meta that makes it worthwhile to us? Some have postulated that people here are actually addicted to going meta because it is easier to go meta than to actually do stuff, and yet despite the lack of real effort, you can tell yourself that going meta adds significant value because it helps change some insight or process once but seems to deliver recurring payoffs every time the insight or process is used again in the future…
...but I have a sneaking suspicion that this theory was just a pat answer that was offered as a status move, because going meta on going meta puts one in a position of objective examination of mere object level meta-ness. To understand something well helps one control the thing understood, and the understanding may have required power over the thing to learn the lessons in the first place. Clearly, therefore, going meta on a process would pattern match to being superior to the process or the people who perform it, which might push one’s buttons if, for example, one were a narcissist.
I dare not speculate on the true meaning and function of going meta on going meta on going meta, but if I were forced to guess, I think it might have something to do with a sort of ironic humor over the appearance of mechanical repetitiveness as one iterates a generic “going meta” operation that some might naively have supposed to be the essence of human mental flexibility. Mental flexibility from a mechanical gimmick? Never!
Truly, we should all collectively pity the person who goes meta on going meta on going meta on going meta, because their ironically humorous detachment is such a shallow trick, and yet it is likely to leave them alienated from the world, and potentially bitter at its callous lack of self-aware appreciation for that person’s jokes.
Related question: If the concept of meta is drawn from a distribution, or is an instance of a higher-level abstraction, what concept is best characterized by that distribution itself / that higher-level abstraction itself? If we seek whence cometh “seek whence”, is the answer just “seek whence”? (Related: Schmidhuber’s discussion about how Goedel machines collapse all the levels of meta-optimization into a single level. (Related: Eliezer’s Loebian critique of Goedel machines.))
I laughed this morning when I read this, and thought “Yay! Theism!” which sort of demands being shortened to yaytheism… which sounds so much like atheism that the handful of examples I could find mostly occur in the context of atheism.
It would be funny to use the word “yaytheism” for what could be tabooed as “anthropomorphizing meta-aware computational idealism”, because it frequently seems that humor is associated with the relevant thoughts :-)
But going anthropomorphic seems to me like playing with fire. Specifically: I suspect it helps with some emotional reactions and pedagogical limitations, but it seems able to cause non-productive emotional reactions and tenacious confusions as a side effect. For example, I think the most people are better off thinking about “natural selection” (mechanistic) over either “Azathoth, the blind idiot god” (anthropomorphic with negative valence) or “Gaia” (anthropomorphic with positive valence).
Edited To Add: You can loop this back to the question about contrarians, if you notice how much friction occurs around the tone of discussion of mind-shaped-stuff. You need to talk about mind-shaped-things when talking about cogsci/AI/singularity topics, but it’s a “mindfield” of lurking faux paus and tribal triggers.
The following was hastily written, apologies for errors.
But going anthropomorphic seems to me like playing with fire. Specifically: I suspect it helps with some emotional reactions and pedagogical limitations, but it seems able to cause non-productive emotional reactions and tenacious confusions as a side effect. For example, I think the most people are better off thinking about “natural selection” (mechanistic) over either “Azathoth, the blind idiot god” (anthropomorphic with negative valence) or “Gaia” (anthropomorphic with positive valence).
(I would go farther, and suggest not even thinking about “natural selection” in the abstract, but specific ecological contingencies and selection pressures and especially the sorts of “pattern attractors” from complex systems. If I think about “evolution” I get this idea of a mysterious propelling force rather than about how the optimization pressure comes from the actual environment. Alternatively, Vassar’s previously emphasized thinking of evolution as mere statistical tendency, not an optimizer as such;—or something like that.)
I think one thing to keep in mind is that there is a reverse case of the anthropomorphic error, which is the pantheistic/Gnostic error, and that Catholic theologians were often striving hard to carefully distinguish their conception of God from mystical or superstitious conceptions, or conceptions that assigned God no direct role in the physical universe. But yeah, at some point this emphasis seems to have hurt the Church, ’cuz I see a lot of atheists thinking that Christians think that God is basically Zeus, i.e. a sky father that is sometimes a slave to human passions, rather than a Being that takes game theoretic actions which are causally isomorphic to the outputs of certain emotions to the extent that those emotions were evolutionary selected for (i.e. given to men by God) for rational game theoretic reasons. The Church traditionally was good at toeing this line and appealing to people of very different intelligences, having a more anthropomorphic God for the commoners and a more philosophical God for the monks and priests, but I guess somewhere along the way this balance was lost. I’m tempted to blame the Devil working on the side of the Reformation and the Enlightenment but I suppose realistically some blame must fall on the temporal Church.
Alternatively, maybe you do accept Neoplatonist or Catharian thinking where we have infinitely meta-aware computational agents as abstractions without any direct physical effect that isn’t screened off by the Demiurge (or cosmological natural selection or what have you). In that case I tentatively disagree, but my thoughts aren’t organized well enough for me to concisely explain why.
Yes, but the real question is why we love going meta. What is it about going meta that makes it worthwhile to us? Some have postulated that people here are actually addicted to going meta because it is easier to go meta than to actually do stuff, and yet despite the lack of real effort, you can tell yourself that going meta adds significant value because it helps change some insight or process once but seems to deliver recurring payoffs every time the insight or process is used again in the future…
...but I have a sneaking suspicion that this theory was just a pat answer that was offered as a status move, because going meta on going meta puts one in a position of objective examination of mere object level meta-ness. To understand something well helps one control the thing understood, and the understanding may have required power over the thing to learn the lessons in the first place. Clearly, therefore, going meta on a process would pattern match to being superior to the process or the people who perform it, which might push one’s buttons if, for example, one were a narcissist.
I dare not speculate on the true meaning and function of going meta on going meta on going meta, but if I were forced to guess, I think it might have something to do with a sort of ironic humor over the appearance of mechanical repetitiveness as one iterates a generic “going meta” operation that some might naively have supposed to be the essence of human mental flexibility. Mental flexibility from a mechanical gimmick? Never!
Truly, we should all collectively pity the person who goes meta on going meta on going meta on going meta, because their ironically humorous detachment is such a shallow trick, and yet it is likely to leave them alienated from the world, and potentially bitter at its callous lack of self-aware appreciation for that person’s jokes.
Related question: If the concept of meta is drawn from a distribution, or is an instance of a higher-level abstraction, what concept is best characterized by that distribution itself / that higher-level abstraction itself? If we seek whence cometh “seek whence”, is the answer just “seek whence”? (Related: Schmidhuber’s discussion about how Goedel machines collapse all the levels of meta-optimization into a single level. (Related: Eliezer’s Loebian critique of Goedel machines.))
I laughed this morning when I read this, and thought “Yay! Theism!” which sort of demands being shortened to yaytheism… which sounds so much like atheism that the handful of examples I could find mostly occur in the context of atheism.
It would be funny to use the word “yaytheism” for what could be tabooed as “anthropomorphizing meta-aware computational idealism”, because it frequently seems that humor is associated with the relevant thoughts :-)
But going anthropomorphic seems to me like playing with fire. Specifically: I suspect it helps with some emotional reactions and pedagogical limitations, but it seems able to cause non-productive emotional reactions and tenacious confusions as a side effect. For example, I think the most people are better off thinking about “natural selection” (mechanistic) over either “Azathoth, the blind idiot god” (anthropomorphic with negative valence) or “Gaia” (anthropomorphic with positive valence).
Edited To Add: You can loop this back to the question about contrarians, if you notice how much friction occurs around the tone of discussion of mind-shaped-stuff. You need to talk about mind-shaped-things when talking about cogsci/AI/singularity topics, but it’s a “mindfield” of lurking faux paus and tribal triggers.
The following was hastily written, apologies for errors.
(I would go farther, and suggest not even thinking about “natural selection” in the abstract, but specific ecological contingencies and selection pressures and especially the sorts of “pattern attractors” from complex systems. If I think about “evolution” I get this idea of a mysterious propelling force rather than about how the optimization pressure comes from the actual environment. Alternatively, Vassar’s previously emphasized thinking of evolution as mere statistical tendency, not an optimizer as such;—or something like that.)
I think one thing to keep in mind is that there is a reverse case of the anthropomorphic error, which is the pantheistic/Gnostic error, and that Catholic theologians were often striving hard to carefully distinguish their conception of God from mystical or superstitious conceptions, or conceptions that assigned God no direct role in the physical universe. But yeah, at some point this emphasis seems to have hurt the Church, ’cuz I see a lot of atheists thinking that Christians think that God is basically Zeus, i.e. a sky father that is sometimes a slave to human passions, rather than a Being that takes game theoretic actions which are causally isomorphic to the outputs of certain emotions to the extent that those emotions were evolutionary selected for (i.e. given to men by God) for rational game theoretic reasons. The Church traditionally was good at toeing this line and appealing to people of very different intelligences, having a more anthropomorphic God for the commoners and a more philosophical God for the monks and priests, but I guess somewhere along the way this balance was lost. I’m tempted to blame the Devil working on the side of the Reformation and the Enlightenment but I suppose realistically some blame must fall on the temporal Church.
Alternatively, maybe you do accept Neoplatonist or Catharian thinking where we have infinitely meta-aware computational agents as abstractions without any direct physical effect that isn’t screened off by the Demiurge (or cosmological natural selection or what have you). In that case I tentatively disagree, but my thoughts aren’t organized well enough for me to concisely explain why.
Damn. You just got metametameta.