Perhaps I was a bit misleading, but when I said the net utility of the Earth may be negative, I had in mind mostly fish and other animals that can feel pain. That was what Singer was talking about in the beginning essays. I am fairly certain net utility of humans is positive.
If you think that (1) net utility of humans is positive and (2) net utility of all animals is negative, and you are minded to try to deal with this by mass-killing, why would you then propose wiping out all animals including humans rather than wiping out all animals other than humans? Or even some more carefully targetted option like wiping out a subset of animals, chosen to improve that negative net utility as much as possible?
Honestly, it probably is. :) Not a bad sign as in you are a bad person, but bad sign as in this is an attractor space of Bad Thought Experiments that rationalist-identifying people seem to keep falling into because they’re interesting.
I like your plan better, gjm. Mass biocide must wait until after we’re no longer so dependent on the biosphere and we can properly target interventions. This is probably a post-singularity question.
Ok, that’s possible. I still don’t think it’s that likely, though. In general, at least from my limited experience with animals, most of them are pretty “happy/ content” most of the time (as much as that word can apply to most animals, so take it with a grain of salt), so long as they aren’t starving and aren’t in serious pain right at that moment in time. They do have other emotional responses, like anger or fear or pain, but those are only things that happen in special conditions.
I think that’s how evolution designed most animals; they’re really only under “stress” a small percentage of the time, and an animal under “stress” 24⁄7 (like, say, an animal in an unhappy state of captivity) often develops health problems very quickly because that’s not a natural state for them.
This is probably more true of some animals than others. From what I’ve read, most baboons and hyenas (for example) are pretty miserable because of their social structures. I remember reading about a case where the dominant members of a baboon troop died of disease and their culture shifted because of it. The surviving baboons were much happier.
Nature (evolution) literally invented pain in the first place, and it’s under no obligation to turn it off when it doesn’t impact genetic fitness. Elephants pass the mirror test. That’s very strong evidence that they’re conscious and self-aware. Yet they slowly starve to death once they’ve run out of teeth.
Oh, there is a lot of suffering in nature, no question. The world, as it evolved, isn’t anywhere close to optimal, for anything.
I do think it’s highly unlikely that net utility for your average animal over the course of it’s lifetime is going to be negitive, though. The “default state” of an animal when it is not under stress does not seem to be an unhappy one, in general.
Perhaps I was a bit misleading, but when I said the net utility of the Earth may be negative, I had in mind mostly fish and other animals that can feel pain. That was what Singer was talking about in the beginning essays. I am fairly certain net utility of humans is positive.
If you think that (1) net utility of humans is positive and (2) net utility of all animals is negative, and you are minded to try to deal with this by mass-killing, why would you then propose wiping out all animals including humans rather than wiping out all animals other than humans? Or even some more carefully targetted option like wiping out a subset of animals, chosen to improve that negative net utility as much as possible?
[EDITED to fix screwed-up formatting]
Wow, that had for some reason never crossed my mind. That’s probably a very bad sign.
Honestly, it probably is. :) Not a bad sign as in you are a bad person, but bad sign as in this is an attractor space of Bad Thought Experiments that rationalist-identifying people seem to keep falling into because they’re interesting.
I like your plan better, gjm. Mass biocide must wait until after we’re no longer so dependent on the biosphere and we can properly target interventions. This is probably a post-singularity question.
Ok, that’s possible. I still don’t think it’s that likely, though. In general, at least from my limited experience with animals, most of them are pretty “happy/ content” most of the time (as much as that word can apply to most animals, so take it with a grain of salt), so long as they aren’t starving and aren’t in serious pain right at that moment in time. They do have other emotional responses, like anger or fear or pain, but those are only things that happen in special conditions.
I think that’s how evolution designed most animals; they’re really only under “stress” a small percentage of the time, and an animal under “stress” 24⁄7 (like, say, an animal in an unhappy state of captivity) often develops health problems very quickly because that’s not a natural state for them.
This is probably more true of some animals than others. From what I’ve read, most baboons and hyenas (for example) are pretty miserable because of their social structures. I remember reading about a case where the dominant members of a baboon troop died of disease and their culture shifted because of it. The surviving baboons were much happier.
Nature (evolution) literally invented pain in the first place, and it’s under no obligation to turn it off when it doesn’t impact genetic fitness. Elephants pass the mirror test. That’s very strong evidence that they’re conscious and self-aware. Yet they slowly starve to death once they’ve run out of teeth.
Oh, there is a lot of suffering in nature, no question. The world, as it evolved, isn’t anywhere close to optimal, for anything.
I do think it’s highly unlikely that net utility for your average animal over the course of it’s lifetime is going to be negitive, though. The “default state” of an animal when it is not under stress does not seem to be an unhappy one, in general.